And now for something completely different: the Superbowl halftime show! After noticing really different reactions to the show from white Christian women and Christian women of color, my good friend Niro Feliciano and I decided to record a conversation. Listen as we talk about Shakira and J Lo, about how culture shapes our view of the world, and how to grow in love even when we disagree.
Connect with me:
Thanks for listening!
And now for something completely different: the Superbowl halftime show! After noticing really different reactions to the show from white Christian women and Christian women of color, my good friend Niro Feliciano and I decided to record a conversation. Listen as we talk about Shakira and J Lo, about how culture shapes our view of the world, and how to grow in love even when we disagree.
Connect with me:
Thanks for listening!
Note: This transcript is generated using speech recognition software and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
0 (0s):
Hello friends. Welcome to the love is stronger than fear podcast. I'm your host, Amy Julia Becker. And for those of you who tuned in throughout December, let me just tell you that today's episode is completely different today. I am talking with my good friend neuro Feliciano about the super bowl halftime show. Nothing about advent. Neuro is a Sri Lankan American woman. We have been friends for nearly 30 years and she is a smart, wise fun, compassionate Christian woman who has been a wonderful friend to me over the years and has taught me a lot about how to think about race and ethnicity and my own whiteness after the halftime show last Sunday.
0 (42s):
And after we noticed really different reactions to that show from white Christian women and Christian women of color Moreau. And I decided to record a conversation. Yes, we talk about Shakira and J lo, but really this is a conversation about how culture shapes our view of the world. How to listen with grace and compassion to one another and how to grow in love. Even when we disagree, I would love to hear what you think. So please listen, and then reach out, reach out to me on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter, or come to my website, Amy, Julia becker.com and reach out through the contact form there.
0 (1m 21s):
I would love to hear from you. Here's our conversation. Hi, I'm Amy Julia Becker, and I'm here with my friend or RO Feliciano. We're going to actually introduce each other a little bit. I want to tell you about in a row. Um, we're going to also introduce each other and then talk to each other. Neuro is one of my very best friends in the world. And we have been friends since high school, 30 years, 30 years, yeah, feeling old. And we've been friends since high school and Rowe is a, an accomplished human being in so many ways.
0 (1m 56s):
She's an awesome mom of four beautiful kids. She's a psychotherapist, she's a fantastic friend. She is a strong Christian woman. Um, and I think her background is relevant here too, that she has, uh, parents, both doctors from Sri Lanka who came to the United States in the seventies, um, as adults. And she'll maybe get a chance to talk a little bit about how that has shaped, informed her. Um, and she also is married to a doctor who is Puerto Rican, very proud, which again may be relevant to this conversation.
0 (2m 28s):
So that's what I'm going to share about who you are, or you want to introduce me a little bit. Yeah,
1 (2m 32s):
I would love to. So, um, Amy Julia is, you know, her, I know her is Aja and we'll always know her as AAJ is, um, also just an amazing person. And I, I would say someone, I think you've been woke since you've come out of the womb just in how you've always processed and observed things. And, um, if you've read anything, she's French, she's a beautiful, award-winning accomplished writer. She has been actually since high school and, um, very and eloquent.
1 (3m 1s):
And the first person I called when it came to this conversation and part of that is because Amy Joel and I have had conversations on race and identity almost for 30 years as women going to a boarding school. Um, Amy, Julia minored in African American studies and stayed with people such as Tony Morrison. I majored in African American studies. So two people like Beverly say them, if that's of any relevance to anybody out there.
1 (3m 31s):
And, um,
0 (3m 32s):
We've had this Beverly Tatum wrote, um, why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria and taught me to ask the question, why are all the white kids sitting together in the cafeteria, which is why I almost called her book that, um, but just, I think it's worth mentioning because that's a book that I think lots of people would benefit from reading.
1 (3m 49s):
Yes. Yes. So, so long as those conversations, we've talked about psychology and race. Um, so I feel like, um, we've had these conversations from just our own perspective and our own lenses, but also having been educated in the discourse of race and culture and psychology.
0 (4m 9s):
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so yeah, I want to fill in also just what, why we're here today and why we're here to have this conversation in a public way. We've had these conversations privately again for like three decades. And this is the first time we've ever tried to have one publicly. And we're doing that because on a Sunday night, we both watched the super bowl with our families and watched the halftime show in particular and had somewhat different reactions to it. And RO texted me on Sunday night and then called me on Monday morning.
0 (4m 41s):
We had a great conversation about the halftime show, but also about all the issues that brought up for us and then decided, well, let's actually have that conversation in front of other people, um, because it's so important for, um, women of color and white women for women of color who are Christians and white women are Christians. That was one really important aspect for both of us that came up as we were talking about this. And as we were seeing, uh, just a more broad cultural reaction to the halftime show.
0 (5m 12s):
So, um, I'm assuming that most people who are watching us or listening to us have seen it, um, but in just a very, I'm going to give a summary of what I saw initially and how I responded and then neuro I'd love for you to do the same. So, um, for me, I saw Shakira doing a pretty fun celebratory dance. Um, I saw Jennifer Lopez come into the performance arena, um, on a pole, which definitely did speak sexual overtones to me.
0 (5m 46s):
Um, I was with my kids. I was not feeling tremendously uncomfortable, but I was aware that was going on in my, I guess, consciousness. But as you say, I'm an observer, not a reactor, not reactive. So let's just keep that in mind, right in the way that you viewed. So I was analyzing from that moment forward, you were born like that. So I was not so much analyzing Shakira. I was analyzing what's going on with J-Lo and how are my kids responding to that? And I got to the end of it and felt like that was fun.
0 (6m 17s):
It was more kind of overtly sexual than I would have chosen. Um, and that was pretty much how I responded. So I'd love to hear from you because I know it was a different, um, viewing and that was really helpful for me to hear
1 (6m 34s):
Right. Well, first of all, I was very excited that there were two minority females headlining this what is watched by the whole world event. And there are two that I have grown up watching. Now I learned about Shakira even before she came into mainstream American culture because she was singing in Spanish for years. Um, loved her music. I love that she was a middle Eastern because that was a culture that I have closer roots to being Sri Lankan, um, similarities, and having lived in Costa Rica and worked in Costa Rica, very popular there.
1 (7m 7s):
So have watched her progression over the years and kind of watch her gain prominence and respect as an artist. Um, she's an incredible musician. She's an incredible dancer in my eyes. And with Jennifer Lopez, especially growing up as a minority female in America, she was one of the few mainstream role models we had starting from in living color. That's when I remembered her as a dancer and then taking on various movie roles and things like that.
1 (7m 37s):
So, so there was just so much excitement going into it. Um, my whole family and my husband's Puerto Rican or kids are half Puerto Rican. We listened to Spanish music. Um, we dance my whole family dance, even my parents have done Latin dancing. So there was a lot of excitement and those were the elements of the program that I focused on. Um, and also just the idea that one, this has never really happened that two women, one we're headlining this show and there are two minority females.
1 (8m 8s):
So for me, I thought that was really exciting. And, um, and we'll talk about, you know, the other reactions, because there were things that I looked at and I was like, Oh, OK. You know, um, but what, and, and as we're talking through this, I think part of it is, um, when we talk about identity and identity development, one thing that stands out often is the area in which we're marginalized, right? So, um, the area where we don't experience privilege.
1 (8m 38s):
So for, in that analogy, that's really great is, you know, when, um, um, a black man looks in the mirror, he might see a black man, I'm a black person, whereas, um, a white man might just see a man, right? Because Erica's privilege,
0 (8m 56s):
Whiteness is normative and the blackness is not, is that what you're getting at? Yeah.
1 (9m 2s):
As, um, if you look at a minority female versus a white female, when I look in the mirror, I'd say a B piece of my identity is being a minority. It is being a female, but a lot of my experiences have been more dictated through culture and being visibly different.
0 (9m 20s):
But so in other words, I'm at look in the mirror and not even think about the fact that I'm seeing a white person, whereas you are always thinking about the fact that you are seeing your ethnic identity. When you look in the mirror, when is that an accurate way to say that? Okay.
1 (9m 34s):
Although, and I went to Mount Holyoke, you know, I went to a women's college. Yeah. So it's not that that's insignificant. No, it didn't. Your identity is significant at all. But between a white woman and myself, what has differentiated our experience is my color and culture. So oftentimes that is the lens in which I view things.
0 (9m 53s):
So what, tell me specifically as a South Asian woman, American woman, I'm seeing those two women on stage using their bodies as strong and just celebrated women. Um, and again, we can talk about the sexualization aspect of this in a minute, but in turn, right. In terms of that specifically. Cause I remember when we talked earlier, um, it was important for me to hear this. I think you were thinking about your daughters and what they were seeing and what you wish you had ever seen right.
0 (10m 25s):
Growing up. So can you talk about that?
1 (10m 27s):
Yeah, because growing up there weren't those opportunities, those mainstream opportunities where the person of prominence was a minority or person of color, right. The roles that we were given were marginalized roles. I mean, for Indian people, it was like the taxi driver, the seven 11 owner, or the woman in the Kama Sutra movie that all of us got mistaken for at one point, which is very degrading, you know, in many different ways. So, um, to see such an important role, being taken by a person of color that they had that opportunity.
1 (11m 1s):
And also we saw the journey to get there. So we've known that we've learned about them through other experiences, we've gained respect for them in other experiences. So what we were seeing there was a piece of their whole journey
0 (11m 15s):
That was particular performers, that performance,
1 (11m 18s):
Right? Yeah. And the fact that now they had the opportunity that was unheard of 20 years ago when, when we were looking at people of color in performance, especially women.
0 (11m 30s):
And the other thing I'll add, and you can say more on this. I called my sister, Kate, who is a dancer. She runs a dance studio and has been dancing for her whole life. And without telling her about our conversation, I asked her what she saw when she saw the halftime show. And she said, Oh, I saw a lot of Brazilian and Afro Caribbean and African dance. It was really cool. And she's at J-Lo
1 (11m 54s):
Is like, I'm, you know, so I respect her. She's so amazing. And she, again talked about the hypersexualization of some aspects of that show performance and was definitely like, we didn't need that. But her overall impression of it as someone who has a much better understanding of global dance and culture, when it comes to dance than I do, that was how she saw it was. And I saw a lot of comments about like people shaking their butts and their hips. And again, I think what I've found is as someone who has grown up in white culture and who sees things through that lens, I think, I think this is true that for many white people thrusting your hips is an invitation to have sex in dance maybe in general.
1 (12m 40s):
I don't know. Um, and that's like, it is only associated with sex. Like the two things go together and in many other cultures moving your hips might have to do with that. Cause it also might have to do with having fun. Right. And like, you know, celebration and celebration and those, and so that's, and that's not to say that there weren't aspects of the performance that were definitely intentionally sexual. Exactly. Right. We're not saying that totally. But I think the reaction I had, why it was so strong was because I saw these moments when I was watching it.
1 (13m 10s):
I was thinking, Oh my gosh, that is an unbelievable salsa. That is an unbelievable Samba, right. That is Africa, Caribbean. You know how to say that in a way that I do not. So my, my perspective was kind of drawn in by all of these and not to mention the highest level of performance in those dance that I thought was just spectacular, the energy, the athleticism, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Um, so it, it was a tuned to a different piece of it. Right. Right. And, and the fact that it was sexual did not minimize for me the significance of the parts that were cultural.
1 (13m 44s):
Right. And, um, that brought great pride, especially that Puerto Rican flag to my husband, for our kids to see that right. That, that was important and celebrated as American and Puerto Rican at the same time is important by some were celebrated. Right? Say that again, say more about why there's some people who thought that was great, that that was the Puerto Rican flag. And there was a lot of commentary that that should have been an American flag first that should have been showing first. Right. Sure. So, but I think again, as a white American, who does not have any other than ed personal connection and my friend Miranda to Puerto Rico, that sense of, um, what did that signify in your living room?
1 (14m 28s):
Right. Celebration, right. I mean, that was really cool excitement, dance and the music. We knew the songs, we knew the music. So, so the part that why I had the reaction, and this is why I was calling you because he knows the therapist, we have to be so aware of our reactions when having these conversations, we call them countertransference when it happens in session. And I saw people posts, this is a setback for women, right. It's a setback for women and it's taken us backwards. And in all the ways that we've come up ahead in our strength and our intelligence, which I felt was insulting because it was automatically saying these women are not strong.
1 (15m 5s):
They are not intelligent. And then they don't really know what they're doing. They don't really know what they're doing. They're just using their body and their sexuality. Yeah. We've been taking a step back and I said, okay, when it's a setback for, for which women. Yeah. You know, and don't speak for me because I found it, um, a step forward in many ways to now that's not to say that I identified with all of it. Right. But I don't feel like we can make these blanket statements to discount what was positive just because our visceral reaction was negative. And again, going back to just the therapeutic background, our visceral reactions come from our own lens, from our own experiences.
1 (15m 42s):
I don't fault anybody for having that visceral reaction, but I don't think it's fair to speak for everyone, especially if we're talking about an entire gender.
0 (15m 50s):
So they certainly, I agree on that. And I think one of the reasons I'm so grateful for our friendship and the ability to ask questions of each other to offer our visceral reaction safely is that I then, after we had this conversation, went back and watched the show again. And when I did that, I literally was teary at the end because I was thinking about your daughters, seeing this representation that felt more like who they are and on screen and being celebrated.
0 (16m 23s):
And I, I was just thought, Oh, that is a celebration. And again, I was not saying, I think that we should like have pulled dancing on every corner or like it's, or that there's no problem with the way in which some of the bodies were portrayed or costuming it was chosen. Or, but that I wasn't only having this like visceral critical lens, but also being able to see that celebration and giving me that lens was really different. I was talking with a friend about this and she said, well, if you speak two different languages, like someone speaking German might say a sound as they speak their language, that sounds to you like they are cursing because in English, what they just said is a curse word.
0 (17m 6s):
When actually it's not, let's not do word enjoyment. Right? Like, and so when you're speaking different languages, that can be a different visual language too. And I thought that was a helpful analogy that if you were to overhear someone speaking German and they said, what we would call the S word, that actually would not mean what we mean when we say that word to them, right. It
1 (17m 25s):
Goes back to costuming, right. Costume and, um, the type of dress. And we, you and I have talks about bodies. Women's smiles. We're going to get into that a little bit more. But, um, one thing I have experience living in Costa Rica, having many friends of lenses that even, even our own culture, you know, we in weddings can be perceived by white American culture is wearing fancy crop tops. Yeah. Say that a little more meaning, meaning Sri Lankans, South Asians, right.
1 (17m 55s):
At one point I was told, Oh my gosh, growing up, you can wear that with your belly hanging out to a wedding. And I was like, yes, that's a proper formal attire. It's actually not considered sexual because like the old aunties still wear it with their, you know, hanging out. But, um, which is, is considered beautiful. So I've noticed, especially in some Latin cultures and I could friend who's Cuban, and who's also a Zumba instructor and I'll tell you kind of her commentary on it. She grew up watching this show called Salvador Gunther, which is a Spanish variety show.
1 (18m 28s):
And looking at my husband visited a house where women were dressed, you know, very tight with tight outfits. They were used to it and not necessarily considered sexual, but beautiful. Right, right. Whereas here, there might be a totally different take on what that looks like and what that's meant.
0 (18m 46s):
Wow. That is meant to be interpreted. This is, so this gets into the Christian aspect of this conversation, which is not the only, I mean, there were people who are not identifying as Christians who were so critical. Absolutely. The sexual objectification as two women who take our faith seriously and who have been doing that together for decades. Again, I do. One of the things that I'd like to talk about is, okay, so as a woman of faith and as a woman of faith who believes in the dignity of the human body and if the human person of the sacred nature of sexuality and the sexual actions, and the fact that we shouldn't like reduce our bodies to sexuality either like all of those things, um, those were a lot of the questions we got online about sexuality.
0 (19m 34s):
We know one of the things I've been thinking about is the difference between modesty and shame and as a white woman, I think that I've often confused the two, can you talk more? So, yeah, so I definitely grew up, um, with ideal of a woman woman's body that was a white ideal without a doubt. Um, and it was pretty as you know, from being my friend in high school, pretty destructive for me, that wasn't the only reason I had an eating disorder, but it was certainly contributed to, it was the sense of the ideal woman's body is straight and flat and skinny, skinny, skinny.
0 (20m 11s):
Right. But even as some extent, that is still the idea of short. Right. For sure. But I like even more so when we were in high school, but yeah, for sure. And we went to a pretty much predominantly white boarding school and then high socioeconomic status, all of those things. So, um, but I think even as an adult, when I've come to much better terms with my body being what it is, I still feel like I would never, like, I hate wearing a bathing suit in public.
0 (20m 43s):
And that is not about modesty. That's about shame that I still
1 (20m 48s):
Am like, but there's a little role here that I don't want anyone else to see. And so I actually, it was taking a walk with another white Christian friend and we encountered some other white women, but who were younger than us who were wearing sports bras and like lots of spandex. And they were all like heavier than we were. And my friend first said, she's like, okay, without a doubt, my first attitude or reaction is judgment. And I think they should put some clothes on. My second reaction is, are they really that comfortable in their bodies that they're able to walk like that?
1 (21m 20s):
And like, what is wrong with me that I can't celebrate the body I've been given? So all of those thoughts that I've been having came up when we were talking about why can't I celebrate, why is the only way to have a woman's body be strong and sexy, right? Because therefore be an object. Like, is there a way to celebrate that without it being objectifying them? Right. What's the difference between modesty and shame. And again, these are all rabbit trails that we're not gonna run all the way down, but I don't know if there's anything more you want to say about that.
1 (21m 52s):
This is what I've been thinking. One thing that that represented to me was the Latina body to actually bodies of people of color. You know, we have been built differently, curvy, bigger butts, bigger hips, you know, bigger thighs. And some people viewed those women and said, Oh, they're skinny. You know, but they have never been known as skinny, especially J-Lo, she's been known as curvy. And those were qualities that we were told growing up. And this is a big difference with, um, developing your racial identity as a minority in America, then coming to this country as a minority already having gone through the process of racial identity, develop, knowing who you are in the context of an environment where, what you were was normal.
1 (22m 35s):
Right. Right. I told you about how many people my size in my life, when I asked about, um, who someone was, you know, what their background was. Um, I was still, Oh, no, they're just normal American versus my kind of abnormal American. Right. Which is why I began to identify as like an American. So, um, what was the saying, remind me, you know, how I do this right. Latin bodies. Yeah. Latin bodies. So the fact that it was celebrated because so often we were taught to conceal it. Right. And I think that has also been reflected in celebrating the curves dressing a certain way.
1 (23m 10s):
Um, not being ashamed of wearing spandex for this people who are walking around, who are not white, you know, who are not white. Um, I think that is a factor in it too. And if we, if you talk to Kate you'll know that African American ballet dancers were often very criticized with fostering their bodies. Um, being told that they didn't have the right form and really it was just the shape of their, their curves, um, that couldn't conform to the positions in the same way as white bodies. So I think that there was a piece of that too here was celebrating ethnic beauty.
1 (23m 43s):
Um, and again, it's not to that, you know, the commentary, it was a strip tease. It was this, it was, and maybe we should get into that. We didn't want to talk about that. We want to talk about kind of the conversations we had with our own kids around sexuality. Is there anything you want to say just before we, I want to move to, I agree to kids. Um, but is there anything where you want to say as far as the like Christianity, like faith, understanding those through the lens of a Christian yes. A perspective, like how do you, how do you bring your faith into this thinking?
1 (24m 18s):
That's a good question. So that's, that's as much a part of my identity as any other aspect, you know, and in many ways kind of supersedes, right. Um, it was interesting. One of the comments, um, and there were a lot, there was a lot of name calling. There was a lot of shaming of these two women who I felt worked very hard in their lives to get there, whether or not we agreed with how they presented themselves. I don't think name calling has a place in this. We stop hearing each other when we start calling them. And that's kind of the beauty of, of our experiences as well.
1 (24m 48s):
Even though we, we do think of like on a lot of these shorts. Right. But we do have conversations with other people who don't. And, um, one of the comments that was given was about me asking how do I reconcile my Christian commitment yeah. In light of this event. And my response was, um, my Christian commitment has more to do with how I'm responding compassionately and in love with people who criticize my Christian could get me based on a super bowl, you know, that is more reflective of who I am as a Christian.
1 (25m 20s):
Yeah. Um, then this piece of it, and it's not to say, I'm going to encourage my kids going out and getting on a pole, but it's, it's more to say, I'm not gonna dismiss the beauty of this event. You know, the celebration of this event, I'm having a wardrobe,
0 (25m 36s):
That's all we need right now that we're talking about. Right. <inaudible>
1 (25m 46s):
So I'm not going to dismiss that. We're going to have conversations around that. And that's where I felt. Um, my reaction was when the whole thing was dismissed and people couldn't see past that aspect of it
0 (26m 1s):
Judgment being the first lens. And then what was really, um, heartbreaking to me was not honestly that Christian women had white Christian women had a strong reaction. We just talked about people have visceral reactions. We now live in an age when we share that really readily with the world for better or for worse. And they're being protective of their kids, all of that good things. As far as when we were talking about Bible verses that say flee sexual immorality, and you know, what does it mean to be pure and Holy before God, like all of those things are good things to talk about.
0 (26m 37s):
But then when there are Christian women of color who were saying, Hey, I saw something really different. I want so much for other white Christian women to say not, Oh, therefore I changed my mind entirely. What you say is all I need to think. Right. But just, Oh, I need to stop and listen. Yes. Because my sister had a different understanding of what just happened last. How did she see it that way? Right. Important questions, important questions, right. To try and understand that there, there could be a valid perspective outside of your own, right.
0 (27m 11s):
That our own perspective in a Christian perspective. Absolutely. Yeah. And by no means to judge someone else's level of faith or walk based on that one perspective, I think that's where it gets really dangerous amongst Christians. And that's where it gets hurtful. You know what I mean? That, that, that, to me, I just felt like there was, I felt like there were one of what was going on in terms of your strong, positive reaction to the show was like years of hurt, implicit hurt, right.
0 (27m 43s):
Like not ever being represented right. Being like, Oh my gosh, it happened. And then how hurtful is that for it then to be like, Oh, you can't be a Christian. If you think about it this way. Like, I mean, there's so much there that just to me again, more, I was the like observer being like, Oh, like that just hurts my heart. Um, and you know, it, it, it drew lines in the sand, in, in our community. And that's the last thing we want as people of faith. So we want to be able to hear each other and have these conversations.
0 (28m 14s):
We don't necessarily have to agree on every point, but we are called to be kind and compassionate and loving through it. But I had Christian women of color say, I don't know if I can be friends with that person anymore. Right. So that's why this warranted a bigger conversation. Not it wasn't about what we feel about the pole or J-Lo or Shakira. It was about how is we, as women can support each other, how can we uplift each other? How can we encourage what is good in each other rather than judge and criticize and tear each other now, you know, and maybe not explicitly, but certainly implicitly, certainly covertly in the way that that was happening.
0 (28m 53s):
Right. And how can we actually learn from each other? Cause I think that's one of the beautiful things for me about our friendships and the other friendships I have with people who are not exactly demographically like me. Right. Like, is that, Oh, like that was hard and challenging and uncomfortable because it meant that I had to say, maybe there's another way to see this. And that's so good for me. Like that. It enriches my understanding of everything when that happens. Yeah. Well, so can we move to our kids?
0 (29m 25s):
You're the mother of four, I'm the mother of three. We both have one boy, right. At the same age. Um, we were watching with our kids and not like, anyway, I'd love to hear how your kids responded, how you talked to them and I'll share that from our end as well. So as you know, I have a 13
1 (29m 42s):
Year old daughter who is much more aware than any of the other girls about what was going on and sexuality and all of those things. A 10 year old son and two younger girls, one who's eight. And when, who is six now the six year old was just trying to figure out how she stayed on the pulp. She was like, it was like magic. You know what, and she, you know, there was, it was a very innocent lens of it. Um, she's seen Cirque de Solei. So, you know, there was a connection there and someone else had seen the American Ninja warrior and their child had kind of made that connection there.
1 (30m 15s):
Now we all knew it was a stripper pole, right. For me, I watched and I was like, Oh, she just did hustlers. That was a nod. So hustlers. So I just looked at it as that. And I was a piece of me that was like, she is 50 and can do that. And that's pretty amazing. You know, I'm not encouraging strippers, not encouraging that lifestyle, but just looking at it. Um, nonjudgmental, matter of fact, now that doesn't mean that I assumed that my child was looking at it and not to judge mentally and Italian. My oldest son, I did have a conversation about, you know, there's so many good things about it.
1 (30m 47s):
Like obviously we're not encouraging surfing. We're not encouraging being on the pole. She is very into fitness. So she was talking about how fit these women were. She also said, it'd be really weird, mom, if you were doing those things as like an old person, even, it's not, I'm glad it's not you. But, um, we were looking at it from a different lens. You know, my son, who's 10 wash the set of friends house with a bunch of boys. And I picked them up before the end of the, um, game. And I said, what'd you think of halftime? And he said, well, that was inappropriate.
1 (31m 17s):
And I said, tell me what, what, and I was glad to hear that he wasn't trying to hide anything or, and I said, what was inappropriate for? And he said the clothes and I, and he was referring to J LO's body suit outfit because he didn't think the other things were inappropriate. He's seen women in bikinis. He's seen, I mean, we don't need to talk about NFL cheerleaders right now. And they're crushed shots that are a part of every day and I felt culture. But, um, I did one for that in there I noticed. Right. So, um, but I said, what about the dancing was that inappropriate?
1 (31m 50s):
And he said, no. And he's also been exposed to a lot of Latin dance in our family, in our culture. He knew the music. And honestly, some of those moments you've been seeing your own kids doing on tip talk, you know? So there is an element of dance culture in it as well. Again, we're viewing it through different lenses. We're viewing it through what we focused on given our own experiences, our own background, our own culture. So our reactions were different too. So yeah.
0 (32m 18s):
Yeah. I love hearing that. And um, yeah, so penny didn't have much of a reaction. She just enjoyed it. Like she loves dance. She thought the moves were really cool. She also loves American Ninja warrior. Um, Marilee is a gymnast and she was truly both in terms of, um, the hip shaking and on the pole was literally like, Oh my gosh, I couldn't do that. And that therefore is awesome.
0 (32m 48s):
And I'm William is the most like me in terms of like observer. I mean, we've been talking about this all week long. Um, and he's similar to Samuel. It was like that costume was inappropriate. Like, um, but at the same time, that was really cool. You know, I can't believe those women can do that. So I do, it does make me think, cause we got a lot of comments on Facebook and Instagram from people saying like, but what about your sons? Like, I don't want my son to see this. And I thought, first of all, I think sons and daughters, there are, um, truly for all of us and for adults as well.
0 (33m 25s):
Anytime we are looking at kind of idealized versions of bodies, we need to be careful about what that does to the way we think about ourselves. Right. I don't think it means that these women should not be working out and performing. I do think it means that I shouldn't think that, gosh, that's their job. Right. So yeah, like if I were spending, I don't know, 20 hours a week working out, maybe I could do that, but I'm not sure I could maybe. Um, but like that, it's not a judgment on me that I can't, and I want my kids to grow up again, knowing that we can celebrate the fact that some people are able to use their body resources.
0 (34m 1s):
Cause there's, there's more involved than just working out. Absolutely. Right. And again, they do have some skill that I don't have when it comes to what they can do, but also with our kids, I think, um, I wanted to, again, in terms of the view that they had, I think I can teach them how to see things. And that doesn't mean again, that they might not have feelings like sexual feelings in response to something on TV, but it's like we, as parents can talk about, well, what happens and what does it mean to be in the world?
0 (34m 35s):
But not of it. What does it mean to be in our culture and to see things that you don't want to see and you wish your kids didn't see? Well, what we're trying to do is teach our kids how to deal with that in those situations, rather than trying to shelter them from all of it, which doesn't mean like we want them to be exposed to everything if
1 (34m 52s):
You felt that uncomfortable with it, because there was a lot of comments about how it should be a family friendly show. I don't know all that many times it's been totally family friendly. You know, there have been different halftime shows for years. Yes. Um, I remember there were a lot of criticisms to every time Beyonce has been up there, whether it's political criticism or sexual criticism, um, what happened to Janet Jackson years ago, which is actually done by a white male who didn't really get the criticism so much as she did for her word her. So, I mean, there, I think we're taking a risk where this is Hollywood, right?
1 (35m 26s):
This is music culture. We have to go into it with that awareness and not necessarily expect there to conform to our desires and our values. Right. Because this is what they do. Um, I do think though that having the conversations are so important, right? Because they're going to come across this all through their life, all through their life when you're not there. So to be able to give them the skills and the language and the tools and know, okay, when is it a point where it isn't appropriate and you want it walk away from it, right. You have to make that decision.
1 (35m 56s):
Yeah. We're not there. Right. So I think it opens up opportunity to have those conversations. And again, if this is it's going to differ based on family and your level of comfort, um, and what you see in it. So if you decide this is not right for finally, there's no judgment there either. You want to turn it off, turn it off. And there were a lot of white Christian women who said that. They said, you know, you didn't like it. You know, we decided to turn off, but
0 (36m 22s):
Yeah, that was our decision. And that's where I guess we should start wrapping up. But I have one more question I do want to ask, um, which is in term, there were a lot of comments about this being, um, demeaning to women and a lot of comments and a sexually objectifying, a lot of comments about it being empowering for women. I know. Um, so it's like, wow, we can see the same thing and come to these pretty polarized positions. This is the, and both. Yes. Right? Exactly. And, but can you, can you see a perspective in each place?
0 (36m 55s):
Right. So there's, first of all, there's that I think, will you speak to a minute for a minute? We've said a little bit of this, but in terms of empowering him, because I think what I heard from you was not quite the same thing as the white women who I saw saying this is empowering. I had a different perspective, not a, not about not a, not to valid one or an invaluable, but a different perspective than you and saying, it felt empowering to see this, what felt empowering about it. Why did you think, see that not only that way, why did you see that in the performance and you know, my, um,
1 (37m 27s):
Girls and even my son for that, for that matter, we're all bicultural, thereby cultural, right. There's Sri Lankan. So there's South Asian and the Puerto Rican. Right. So
0 (37m 37s):
They're growing up in Connecticut just to point that I'm good. I said, yeah. And nothing was ever said the
1 (37m 44s):
States. So yes, absolutely. So to be able to see people of color, doing things really well, and I'm referring to the dancing, I'm referring to the singing, I'm referring to, um, the performance aspect of it. I didn't see cultures represented was empowering. They're also growing up at a time where there's a female Indian late night talk show, host, like that was beyond my imagination. So I think there's definitely elements of this that are far more exciting for me and more normal for them, you know? Well, of course women can do this.
1 (38m 15s):
Of course there's opportunity just because you're Puerto Rican and you know, doesn't matter. Whereas the way I grew up with this is amazing that your main street, you know, you're headlining, you have this major role in this film, you have this spot on TV. Those, it never would have happened before. No, in fact, I posted something, um, Lily saying, and Mina, the 11 actors went on bar. Did you see that at all? Oh my gosh, go watch it. It's hilarious. So it's all these Brown people and they've kind of categorize same Indians, all South Asians, even some middle Eastern.
1 (38m 52s):
And they do the skit and I showed it to a friend of mine who is white. And she said, this is amazing. And I hope there are more and more opportunities where they bring together, right. Brown people to do something like this. And I was like, yeah, are you kidding me? This isn't a lifetime achievement Brown versus hip one, please. You know, I was like, I'm done, you know, that's all I needed. Yeah. So, um, the excitement about that, I think it's different. But for them, I love that they're seeing that anything is possible now what they choose to do with that, how they tend to steward that privilege.
1 (39m 26s):
You know, if we want to talk certain language, um, is going to be very different and that's a different conversation. Right. Right. When you have that level of that opportunity, that authority of that platform, how do you want to use it? But to know that the platform is possible, that was empowering.
0 (39m 41s):
Yeah. That makes perfect sense. All right. Well, so to wrap up this conversation and I hope we will, I mean, I know we will have more maybe
1 (39m 51s):
What about just, I feel like <inaudible> like when we were like 13 and 14 years old and we have not grown since then, like we're both like, yeah, we've grown. We haven't, we haven't, um, you're certainly smart. So, um,
0 (40m 10s):
Mmm.
1 (40m 11s):
I feel like there are people who want to hear about the whole objectification of women.
0 (40m 15s):
Totally. And I think so. Yeah. So one thing that we both agree is like a devastating reality about the super bowl is that it is a major event for sex trafficking, which is to say for women and girls, young girls who are being treated as human objects. I mean, it is devastating to even think about that. And so there is a layer when we're talking specifically about the super bowl of concern for women and for their bodies and for their lives.
0 (40m 52s):
Right. And we don't want to in any way undermine or diminish that. And I do think there's a concern for all of us as American consumers, not just when it comes to the super bowl when it comes to so many aspects of our lives to think about what is the human cost behind what we are participating in. And I think that that is equally relevant to watching the men who are running into each other on the field, as it is to watching the women who are performing on stage in this case this year and the men who were performing as well.
0 (41m 25s):
Um, so I think it's really relevant, obviously the fact that there was a sexual, especially because of the pole nature. And so again, like kind of sex culture aspect to the performance, um, is relevant. And I guess, I guess all I want to say is like, we don't as Christians as humans. Like we do not want to see anyone as an objectified. Yeah. And there are female and we all, and we do have to ask questions.
0 (41m 56s):
I mean, and that's not, our culture does a lot of that. And I think some of that was going on, um, on Sunday night and I want to talk to my kids about that and I want to be careful myself about that. Um, so I don't, it doesn't make me say, and therefore I won't ever watch the Superbowl halftime show in the future. Um, but I also think it's like a really valid concern. I don't know what you would say.
1 (42m 20s):
It's absolutely a valid concern and especially raising daughters and Anna's a son who I don't want to objectify anybody. Right, right. As well. Um, they're conversations to have again, because of what the significance, the cultural significance was for me and my ability to see the complexities of that program, where someone else may not have been able to identify the different dances, know the songs, identify the music, understand the Spanish that was spoken. Right. I was taken in, in a different way, as well as my experience
0 (42m 52s):
Educated when it comes to pop culture, friends, not so much. No you're doing great. So, um,
1 (42m 59s):
You know, it it's that piece of it. I feel like our conversations to have, but it didn't diminish for me the beauty that I saw in it. And I feel like, um, in some ways, you know, and maybe this comes from therapy is what we choose to focus on. Right. And it's not to say that those things are not important, what we choose or what we subconsciously do focus on. Um, if we want to look for the things that we can tear apart we're and find them right. If we want to look at how this was celebrated and empowering and beautiful, we are going to find those things too.
1 (43m 34s):
Um, it's just a matter of which you are attuned to. And I don't believe anything is anyone's fault. Therefore shouldn't be judged for it right. Either way. Um, but to understand that there is more than one perspective on this and, and it does not diminish in any way, the person who is coming from that perspective.
0 (43m 54s):
And I think, I mean, what you were, what you're saying, and the whole event makes me just think about what I believe is true about human beings, that we are all vulnerable, that we are all broken and that we are all beloved and gifted. Right? Like, and so I think all of that is mixed up in most of what we do. And sometimes the brokenness, like the sinfulness, the fallen, this comes out so much that we really do need to say, we can't watch this. Like there have definitely been times where I've turned off a show and walked away or said, it's just not healthy for me to read that magazine or whatever.
0 (44m 28s):
So I think there can be discernment there. And that might be different from person to person, as someone with an eating disorder, there are magazines that were not helpful to me when I was recovering from that right. Things like that. But at the same time, I think to be able to hold that brokenness alongside the beauty is also really important. And I think that is what Jesus did with all of us. And like, and actually, I mean, he held them both and he emphasized the beauty without saying like, Oh, it doesn't matter that you've got this brokenness in your life that you've committed these sins.
0 (45m 1s):
And he wasn't saying it doesn't matter, but he was also saying, and what I see in you is God's love for you. Um, so I, I think there's good. That's so good. And he had the conversations, he had the conversations, he met people where they were, and he saw them as full human beings and didn't have a glove and did it out of love. And he heard them and he heard them. He didn't dismiss them right. Or discount them in any way because of their perspective. And I think that that's, that's the image of faith that I choose to step into that how I want to live my life.
0 (45m 33s):
I want to be known for, you know, so, I mean, there's so many things we didn't talk about tolerance. What do we tolerate? What can we not tolerate these different things? But I think I'll, I'll just say that it's a far more complex event, um, and issues, the issues of firmer complexity and talk about the politics either. There was a lot of political stuff going on, but we're not going to go there right now. So, so what would you say, and this is like my therapy question for you. You're in my office. What would you say is the takeaway from this conversation?
0 (46m 6s):
I think actually that where we landed in terms of just that sense of, um, the complexity of who we are as humans, but choosing to listen, to learn. Um, and for me as a white person, I still every day have to remind myself that my view of the world is not the normative, like the only way to see it or the right way to see it. That's a better way to say it. Like where have the privilege you have and then white.
0 (46m 38s):
And then I see the world in this way because of my background and these positions, social positions I've had throughout my life. Um, it enhances my life to not only see it that way. Like it's totally positive for me, but it's also uncomfortable and challenging. And that's why I need friends like you and many others in my life to actually call me out and to challenge that, um, and to do it in like a safe and welcoming way where I don't feel like I'm going to be shamed or chastised for the fact that I saw it this way, but actually be like, listen to, but also gently.
0 (47m 12s):
And, and part of why it's so easy for you is because you generally want to know and, and you want to listen and you offer that you're seeking to understand. Right. Um, the other perspective, I think for me as a, as a minority, a person of color, um, I have to remember that again. And,
1 (47m 31s):
And, you know, I do this all the time in the office is a person as a product of their experiences. Right? So if, if I'm listening to something that I automatically have this visceral reaction to what, not to react or respond right away, um, not to judge that person for what they have not experienced or do not know, but to, to recognize that as a viewpoint, I might not agree with it. I might agree with it, you know? And, um, and life isn't so black and white, right. You know, it's not like in white, even though black and white, it makes people feel comfortable because they could reduce it and put it into boxes, but it's not.
1 (48m 5s):
So we have to be open to talking about the gray areas, um, and learning from each other and from the different experiences
0 (48m 13s):
And having compassion, even when it feels like that's a hard thing to do. Yeah. Yeah.
1 (48m 19s):
And that's the true test of, I think, living out your faith is that compassionate response, right?
0 (48m 26s):
Yeah. Well, and I think, again, if we can think about the way that God sees us through the eyes of love, then that can help equip us to do that for other people. Yeah.
1 (48m 36s):
Yeah. Well, thank you for having this conversation and thank you for listening. And there are so many other issues that we're talking about discussing further in a podcast that we didn't get to because obviously it's far more complex than what we just broke it down to, but this is just a start. And we hope that you will continue to have these conversations with people, you know, and even reach out to people you don't know. There are plenty of people on social media right now who are willing to have these conversations and answer questions, including both of ourselves.
1 (49m 9s):
So, um, I know this is gonna cause other reactions that other people have and, and that's okay, but it's, it's just a starting point. Yeah. We welcome the conversation. Yeah. Alright. Thank you.