What does COVID-19 tell us about our humanity? In today’s episode, Amy Julia talks about the way this pandemic exposes three truths of human nature. She also explores three impediments to living in love: distraction, fear, and injustice. With a look at Philippians 2:1-4 as an ideal way to live, she offers thoughts on the way social divisions impede living in love.
Show Notes:
For the Life of the World podcast (Miroslav Volf)
Article in Washington Post by Sarah Pulliam Bailey re Samaritan’s Purse and Cathedral of St. John the Divine
Update: While the organization Amy Julia mentions in this podcast, Samaritan's Purse, has set up in Central Park and is serving people there, the plans to work in the cathedral of St. John the Divine were canceled. According to the New York Times, it is unclear whether that changed due to need or to disagreement between Samaritan's Purse and St. John the Divine over same-sex marriage. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/nyregion/st-john-the-divine-franklin-graham.html)
Philippians 2:1-4
Connect with me:
Thanks for listening!
What does COVID-19 tell us about our humanity? In today’s episode, Amy Julia talks about the way this pandemic exposes three truths of human nature. She also explores three impediments to living in love: distraction, fear, and injustice. With a look at Philippians 2:1-4 as an ideal way to live, she offers thoughts on the way social divisions impede living in love.
Show Notes:
For the Life of the World podcast (Miroslav Volf)
Article in Washington Post by Sarah Pulliam Bailey re Samaritan’s Purse and Cathedral of St. John the Divine
Update: While the organization Amy Julia mentions in this podcast, Samaritan's Purse, has set up in Central Park and is serving people there, the plans to work in the cathedral of St. John the Divine were canceled. According to the New York Times, it is unclear whether that changed due to need or to disagreement between Samaritan's Purse and St. John the Divine over same-sex marriage. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/nyregion/st-john-the-divine-franklin-graham.html)
Philippians 2:1-4
Connect with me:
Thanks for listening!
Note: This transcript is generated using speech recognition software and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
1 (2s):
Hello. And welcome to season two of the love is stronger than fear podcast. I'm your host, Amy Julia Becker, and each week we're going to take a look at current events, AKA the Corona virus. And we're going to consider a small portion of Paul's letter to the Philippians. Paul wrote this letter under adverse circumstances, and he wrote about how to know joy, peace, hope, and love. Not by denying the hardship of the moment, but by knowing God in the midst of that hardship, I hope that reading the Bible in our current moment of uncertainty and turmoil will help us to turn away from fear and toward love.
1 (48s):
Thank you for joining me.
2 (53s):
So here at my house, we are entering week five of the coronavirus shut down or shelter in place or locked down or quarantine, whatever word a different people are using to describe the situation that many of us across America find ourselves in for my kids. This is week five of either spring break or distance learning, which means I've got three kids. They're 14, 11, and nine. So they are in front of three different screens.
2 (1m 23s):
As I record this podcast and my husband is actually still able to go into his office because no one else works in the same building. So that's what we're doing. One of the things we've been doing is actually having more family time over the course of these five weeks. And one of the shows that we have been watching together is called the good place new may or may not have heard of the good place it's actually finished. Now. I tend to come to pop culture, you know, a few years late, which is the case with the good place, but I highly recommend the show.
2 (1m 55s):
It's probably too mature for our nine year old, but it's great for middle school and adult viewers. So we're really enjoying it. And it's talking about what makes a person good. And if you are good or bad, are you deserving of eternal reward, eternal punishment? It's pretty funny. It's pretty witty. There's a lot of content thrown in there. So if you are someone who likes philosophy or theology plus humor, uh, the stars of the show are Ted Danson and Kristen bell.
2 (2m 27s):
Then you might enjoy it too. Anyway, we've really enjoyed it. And our son, William has watched all four seasons of the good place. The family as a whole is on season two. He's watched all four seasons and has really internalized some of the debates going around during the show. So maybe a month ago we were sitting at the dinner table and William poured himself, some water Marilee then said, William, we pass me the water. He passed her the water. And there was, you know, a half an inch of water left, a sip, maybe too.
2 (3m 0s):
So merrily rolls her eyes at William. Mary Lee is my nine year old Williams day, 11 year old. And she says really William, because William knows that whoever finishes the water completely is responsible for getting up from the table and refilling the water. So when he was pouring his water, he very intentionally poured out everything. But those last couple of sips, so the next person would have to get up from the table and refill the water. Really William Marilee says, and he says with the shrug of his shoulders, I didn't kill it.
2 (3m 36s):
So she gets up and gets to the water and I'm kind of glaring at him in the meantime. And he goes mom, to just think about it for a minute. What if I tried to be like Jesus all the time? I mean, I think Jesus would have refilled the water and I think Jesus would have done it like willingly. So do you think Jesus would have, would he like unload the dishwasher without asking anyone else to help all the time?
2 (4m 7s):
Would he fold all the laundry? And I said, well, I'm not sure that he would always be unloading the dishwasher and folding the laundry. But if you were doing those things, he would be doing it because he loved the people he was doing it for. And if you weren't doing those things, it would also be out of love either way. His motivation would be love, not selfishness and William. It was pretty funny because he just sat back and he was like, huh, good thing.
2 (4m 38s):
I'm not trying to be like, Jesus was not something that motivated him to a different way of action. It just got him thinking about what it would be like to be motivated by love how it would lead to a different approach to passing the water bottle at our family dinner table, honestly, for him. And for many of us to be motivated by love, by self sacrifice seems pretty impossible. It's a standard, an ideal that's hard to meet.
2 (5m 9s):
And yet there's also some part of us that really longs for it, which I think is why that came into William's mind in the first place. And why a show like the good place brings up so many good questions. We long to live in the ideal, but it's not where most of us live most of the time. And it's certainly not where we're living right now. But for many of us, it's not where we're living right now. Even in our own families, our own houses. I know in my house, there's been plenty of bickering or fighting over things like who gets the last Popsicle and whether or not it's fair that William got a new bike and Marilee got a hand me down, we're fighting over screen time and we're fighting over who gets to set the table or who must set the table tonight.
2 (5m 55s):
And that's just the surface layer of our discontent. So I want to read the short passage from Philippians that we're going to be looking at this week and talk about what is the ideal, this vision of an ideal communal life and what gets in the way of that, what impedes that ideal and how might we move beyond those impediments to a full and whole life of love.
2 (6m 25s):
Philippians I'll just remind you is written by the apostle Paul to an early church about 2000 years ago, but it's really relevant in our current moment because it's written from a place of suffering and written with an exhortation to have a joy that doesn't come from surface happiness, but from a deep wellspring of love and hope. Uh, and because it is written from a person who's writing in isolation to a community and speaking about what it means to live with faith and hope in the midst of insecurity.
2 (6m 59s):
This is the beginning of Philippians chapter two verses one through four. If then there is any encouragement in Christ, any constellation from love, any sharing in the spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete. Be of the same mind, having the same love being in full accord and of one mind do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, regard others, as better than yourselves, let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others, what a vision do, nothing from selfish ambition, look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others, be of the same mind, having the same love for the Philippians for us, for William, this often seems impossible.
2 (8m 0s):
And what I want to talk about is why, why does it seem impossible? Why does a life of unity and care and kumbaya a hippie glory? That's so hard for us as human beings. I think these past couple of weeks as a nation have actually exposed human nature in both its glory and its shame. So there are these heroic and ordinary stories about the way human love has triumphed.
2 (8m 30s):
In these past few weeks, we've got nurses and doctors who are going to work, knowing that they don't have the protective gear that they need. We have elderly people. I've heard multiple stories of elderly men and women who have said, you know what, give the ventilator to someone else. I can take my chances with death because I have lived a good life and I'm ready to give that someone else. There are the more ordinary sacrifices that I've heard about.
2 (9m 1s):
Certainly have parents staying home with their children of teachers, learning how to navigate Xoom of businesses, pivoting to make masks, to give out free hand sanitizer. I've also heard about single people who are self isolating, living entirely alone, out of a care and concern for the common. Good. I also read a story in the Washington post about the Samaritan's purse.
2 (9m 31s):
It's an organization led by Franklin Graham, who is a conservative Christian, and it's a conservative Christian organization setting up to serve people inside the cathedral of st. John, the divine, which is a kind of notoriously liberal Christian sanctuary and space. And I thought that a vision of a conservative Christian organization working within the space of a liberal Christian organization spoke to this vision of unity, of making joy, complete of having the same love and being of the same mind of unity, even if not uniformity of belief.
2 (10m 10s):
So there are, we do have these beautiful images of people who are sacrificing serving one, another caring for one another in ordinary ways like moms and dads, uh, caring for their children. And in more heroic ways like the nurse in my town who just went back to work and had a stream of cars where people look out the window, we're cheering for her, but we've also seen human selfishness and human division come even more to the surface, right?
2 (10m 42s):
It exposes our humanity in all of its glory, but also all of its shame to be in a time of trial. So we see the extreme examples of people trying to profit from fake drugs to, uh, that they say will cure or protect against the coronavirus. We also just see, I think inequity has been exposed in a way that's really uncomfortable and really troubling. I remember reading right when New York city was strutting down their public schools, that there would be hundreds of thousands of children who went without lunch because of the school was being closed.
2 (11m 25s):
That 750,000 children were living below the poverty line. That a hundred thousand of them were homeless. New York city is two hours away from where I live and I was not engaged with or aware of that reality. So it exposed inequity and injustice simply to say, here's what happens when we take school away from my kids, it's inconvenient. They need to come home. We need to rig up some old laptops.
2 (11m 57s):
It doesn't mean that they're not getting lunch anymore. It doesn't mean that they're not getting an education anymore. There are children in other cities and rural parts of our nation where education is really hard to come by right now, as a result of all sorts of different social inequities and divisions. We've seen the inequity in healthcare across the country, that people without health insurance are not aware of whether or not they can get care in this time of need. We know that even for people who can get care, the coronavirus has actually caused more deaths, disproportionately more deaths among African American and Hispanic communities than among the white population.
2 (12m 39s):
We don't know exactly why yet. And there are all sorts of reasons, but it brings up again, these disparities and inequities. We see, even in inequity, in the ability to protect ourselves from the coronavirus to socially distance ourselves, most white collar jobs are enable people to stay at home and work from home. Many blue collar jobs in the service industry do not. There are people who have second homes or who have enough wealth to have the option of leaving cities in order to be in a more protected space and many people who are poor, uh, end up staying in more crowded communities and therefore, uh, risking more exposure to this virus.
2 (13m 22s):
This whole experience exposes hierarchies of care. I've been reading about the disability population and certainly whether or not people like my daughter, penny who's 14 and who has down syndrome or at any higher risk of contracting or being suffering from this disease than other kids, their own age. And, and thankfully in her case, I don't think she's in a higher risk population just because she has down syndrome, but plenty of people with disabilities are in a higher risk population.
2 (13m 55s):
And especially for those who are living in group homes, they're also in these spaces where it's really difficult to stay protected from this virus. So they're all the more vulnerable and all the more exposed prison populations are also in a similar situation. So this experience of the Corona virus in our country has brought forth some of the beautiful acts of love and service that people are willing to offer to one another, both on an individual and a more systemic level.
2 (14m 29s):
It's also exposed inequity, inequity, and injustice. It shows us ourselves, right. It shows us human nature. And I would say there are three aspects of human nature that are true to my experience that are what the biblical record tells us is true about humanity. And these are those three things that we are, we are creatures, not just beings, but creatures. And as a result of being created, we're vulnerable, we're needy.
2 (15m 1s):
We can't simply take care of ourselves. We actually depend upon the creator and upon the created order. So we are created beings. Secondly, that we're created in God's image. This goes all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, but it also runs throughout the Bible. This idea that we are in God's image, that somehow we've reflect the being of God in who we are. I am not going to go into all of the implications of any of these things.
2 (15m 35s):
But what I will say is that the Bible also tells us that God is love. And I believe that what it means to be created in God's image is to be created as those who love and who are loved as those who give and receive love. When we are doing that, we are the most true to who we are and to God's image within us. So we are created, we are created in God's image, but we also are fallen and broken. And again, the Christian understanding of this goes back to the beginning of Genesis, and we use the word sin to describe what happened when we turned in on ourselves, instead of looking to God for guidance and dependence, but whether or not you believe in the concept of sin, it is those examples of injustice and inequity, those examples of personal moral failures that I believe all of us have experienced.
2 (16m 31s):
At least any of us who are in isolation with just ourselves or with others in recent days and weeks, we've understood even better how vulnerable and needy we are, how much we have the capacity to love and to be loved, but also how fallen and broken we are. And again, that's true for us as individuals and that's true collectively. So I want to read one more time, this passage from Philippians, and then ask the question, what gets in the way, what impedes living out of love?
2 (17m 8s):
What ruins the ideal, why don't we live this way? And then next week, I'm going to talk more about the hopeful side of this and about what it would mean to participate in love and healing, or be motivated by that love. So one more time, Philippians two verses one through four, if then there is any encouragement in Christ, any constellation from love, any sharing in the spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete.
2 (17m 39s):
Be of the same mind, having the same love being in full accord and of one mind do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but humility, regard others as better than yourselves, but each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others, looking, not just at this passage, but at the Bible as a whole. And again, thinking through just experience in the world, why don't we live this way?
2 (18m 9s):
Why don't we live in such a way that we esteem others before ourselves, where we lay down our lives, where we act sacrificially, where we're motivated by love. We, I think can agree that that would be wonderful if everyone, if there was a social compact contract, social contract to work that way, that that would be delightful, but we don't, why not. And sure, I could give you the answer that kind of Sunday school answer of sin. We turn in ourselves and away from God and away from other people and we get stuck there.
2 (18m 42s):
But what does that actually look like? What does it manifest itself as, and why do we live that way? I think the first reason we live that way is because we're distracted and we're distracted by both our very busy lives. And by entertainment, we have enough of wealth in this country that we are not in need, or at least we're not aware of our neediness as often as we might be, if wealth were not as prevalent. And we have all of these devices and shows and opportunities to distract ourselves from our deeper needs, our needs and longing for connection, our needs and longing for love, for meaning, for purpose, for forgiveness, we're able to distract ourselves and busy ourselves and entertain ourselves away from that.
2 (19m 30s):
Although I believe that's different right now, we're in a time of social isolation and in a time of real pandemic concern, it's harder to distract ourselves with busy-ness and entertainment. And on the one hand that can just lead to more coping strategies, healthy or not, but it also can lead us to actually dig deeper. That's what this podcast I've talked about that in other weeks to actually dig deeper into say, what would it mean to put my roots into the soil of God's love and to live out of that place?
2 (20m 8s):
So the first thing that impedes us from living out of love is distraction. The second thing is fear, and we've had a lot of fear right now. Honestly, we've had a lot of fear in our culture. A lot of it unwarranted for a very long time. It's been called the age of anxiety, anxiety, medications are on the rise, anxiety diagnoses for both young kids, teenagers and adults have also been rising. Those are like technical disorders, but just the experience of stress or worry or fear or anxiety has been heightened in our culture in recent years.
2 (20m 44s):
And that's absent the coronavirus. So we now have pandemic, a literal pandemic that is sweeping around the globe. And I've been listening to a podcast which I recommend called for the life of the world with a theologian named Miroslav volt. Henry was thoughtful, says, you know what? Fear is also behaving like a pandemic right now. It's infectious. And it spreads. And we do not have immunity. We have not developed immunity against fear because we haven't faced it like this before.
2 (21m 19s):
And I know for me, just as the weeks progress started off going to the grocery store and people were kind of joking when we would give each other elbow taps, this being like maybe five or six weeks ago, like, Oh, I know I'm not supposed to shake your hand, but I'll tap your elbow. And then, okay, I've watched the video of the doctor telling me that I should behave as though all of my food has a glitter on it and I need to disinfect it. And so, okay, I'm going to be wearing gloves and other people are wearing gloves and I'm judging the people who aren't wearing the gloves.
2 (21m 49s):
And I'm feeling worried for the people behind the checkout register, who aren't wearing the gloves and then the masks come in. Right? And so we cover our faces and our noses. And I think these are good practices to protect ourselves and to protect other people. But what I've noticed is how now in the grocery store, it's just increasingly somber. There's an increasing sense of fear. I have one friend who said, you know, for 24 hours after I come back from being at the store, I just wonder, is there anyone who I could have hurt by my presence, fear, easily takes over and infects us.
2 (22m 30s):
And one of the things that Michelle Wolf is talking about is how to have the right kind of fear and how to develop a trust in God that can help us overcome fear. So again, I recommend that podcast, if you want to hear more on that topic, but fear can impede living out of love. Because again, we turn in on ourselves, we isolate ourselves and we don't connect to other people. And then finally, injustice, social divisions impede us from living lives of love because we're literally cut off from other people.
2 (23m 5s):
We are cut off from people who are in different demographic categories than we are. And that inhibits us from having relationships of love and systems of love that overcome that injustice. As many of you know, I wrote a book called white picket fences, turning towards love in a world, divided by privilege that came out in the fall of 2018. So year and a half ago. And in that book, I write about my own experience as a person of what I would call privilege, uh, where wealth and whiteness and education, and a number of other factors contributed to allowing me have access to opportunities that were not available to other people.
2 (23m 50s):
And I want to talk a little bit about privilege for a minute here, because I do think that understanding these social divisions means understanding a little bit about privilege, about what it is, what it is not and how it harms everyone. So I want to define what privilege is, what it is not and how it harms everyone, so that we can talk a little bit about how injustice impedes us from living in this life of love. So what privilege is, if I were in front of you with a white board, I would be drawing a Venn diagram right now.
2 (24m 24s):
So you can imagine a Venn diagram and you can imagine some overlapping demographic measures. So again, race and ethnicity would be one circle on the diagram, gender, the educational status of your parents, whether or not your parents are married, all sorts of social factors would go into that Venn diagram. And each of those social factors would be something that's unearned. So something that you didn't do anything to deserve or not deserve, you just were born into it.
2 (24m 58s):
So again, for me, I was born into wealth. I was born into having married parents who were both college educated. I was born into whiteness. I was born into a Christian household. All of those different demographic factors actually gave me unearned social advantages. And what happens because we're humans, when there are certain groups of people who have unearned social advantages is those unearned social advantages often lead to unjust social divisions.
2 (25m 32s):
And they're usually not the decisions of one individual. No one is generally running out the door saying I'm so excited to create some unjust systems that will advantage me and not other people today. But over time, what unearned social advantages do is they lead to unjust and sometimes simply out of ignorance, unjust social divisions, an unearned social advantages. When you look at them across a whole society and across a whole system, tend to lead to unjust social divisions.
2 (26m 10s):
So when I'm talking about privilege, that's what I'm talking about. Those unearned social advantages and the injustice that they lead to and the social divisions that they lead to, but I'm not talking about. So here's what privilege is not privilege is not an accusation of moral or a moral judgment privilege is not an accusation or a moral judgment. It's not saying you are wrong simply by being who you are.
2 (26m 41s):
What it is saying is, Hey, take a look at who you are and the ways in which, who you are, was given to you, whether by God, or by society was given to you and how other people were not given the same things. And then ask the question, what are you going to do about it? Another thing privilege is not, it's not saying you didn't work hard. I'm someone who has a lot of privilege, a lot of unearned social advantages, and I've worked really hard. A lot of my life, in fact, in America being privileged tends to go hand in hand with working really hard.
2 (27m 18s):
So saying that someone has a life of privilege is not to say they have a life with no hard work. And it's also not to say that their life is an easy one. Plenty of people with privilege have had hard things happen in Jor, hard things day in and day out, whether that's the suffering of family members or the suffering of abuse or addiction, there's plenty of anxiety and harm, self harm and harm to other people that happens in privileged communities. We are all needy and broken and vulnerable people and privilege does not mitigate that.
2 (27m 53s):
So what privilege is an unearned, uh, social advantage that leads to unjust social divisions, what it is not, it is not a moral judgment. It is not an accusation that you don't work hard. And it is not an accusation that you've had an easy life, but it is a form of separation. And that does become all the more evident in a time of widespread suffering. Like we have now, where we can see that the most vulnerable people are the most at risk.
2 (28m 24s):
Those who are vulnerable, physically, those who are vulnerable, economically, those who are vulnerable socially, racially, ethnically are at greater risk of harm in this time, the same time, the reason privileged harms all of us and not just those who are cut off from access to the advantages that people who would be considered privileged have is that it cuts us off from one another. I miss out and I've learned this most of all through our daughter, penny, who has down syndrome.
2 (28m 57s):
So penny is someone who both falls inside and outside the walls of privilege. And for me, having penny in my life has been this introduction to what it means to move outside the walls of privilege and to recognize the beauty, the grace, the joy, the challenges that exist there. I've written about this, and I've spoken about this and many other contexts, and I'm not going to go into all of those details. Now can read white picket fences if you want to learn more.
2 (29m 29s):
But what I learned is that being someone who's lived a life of privilege is not just cutting others off from the advantages that I have. It's also cutting me off from the richness of a life, with a different set of values, with a need to ask some of those deeper questions of meaning and purpose. It's cut me off from mutual dependence and relationship with other people and with a wider array and diversity of people than I knew within my own privileged existence.
2 (30m 6s):
And it's in acknowledging the harmfulness, both within privilege and outside of it, that has allowed me to begin to ask, how can we move towards healing? And how can we do that together? I believe that we've got a moment of opportunity here in our nation to identify and acknowledge harm that has been done through injustice in separating people from one another.
2 (30m 36s):
That's happened again on individual levels, but it's also happened collectively through social divisions, through demographic advantages that are given to some people and not to others. When you identify and acknowledge harm, the point is not to expose the harm and just point fingers at it. I think about myself going into a doctor's visit or checkup. And what I do when I go to a new doctor is I tell them my health history, I'm 43 years old.
2 (31m 6s):
But one of the things that I have recently been telling various doctors is that both my mother and my grandmother had colon cancer when they were about 55, as a result of telling my doctors about the colon cancer that I had nothing to do with this is my mother and my grandmother. I tell them about that. And you know what they tell me, they tell me that I am a lucky recipient of an early colonoscopy, which obviously is unpleasant and who wants a colonoscopy. But I tell them that because I know that identifying this potential harm to say, look, I see the harm that's out there and I'm identifying it.
2 (31m 44s):
And I'm acknowledging it can actually allow us to take preventative measures to keep me safe. And the same is true. If we acknowledge and identify the harm within our society, the harm that we participate in, sometimes unwittingly just by being born, that sometimes it's harm that we perpetrate because we do things out of ignorance or out of selfishness, but either way, the harm is out there. And if we can acknowledge that and identify it, then we can begin to participate in healing.
2 (32m 21s):
And that's the invitation to us and for us. So going back to Philippians for a moment, what Paul is talking about here is a new way of living a new social contract in which we so understand the inestimable value, that God places upon us. We so understand how beloved we are. And we are so rooted and established in that love that we are able to actually consider others better than ourselves.
2 (32m 59s):
Imagine, you know, that you are of inestimable worth and you look around and you see all these other people who are also of inestimable worth, how do you behave now? So it's out of that place of love that we begin to learn how to love one, another, how to lay down our lives, not out of some sort of self-flagellation, but out of honoring who we are, who our fellow human beings are and who God is and what God has done for us.
2 (33m 31s):
There's a vision here that Paul gives us of what it looks like to be motivated by love. And that's where I want to live. I go back to William at the dinner table in awe of the thought of living like Jesus and knowing that it seemed really impossible. I want to be someone who is motivated by love, not just in passing water at the dinner table, but in how I give money away in how I participate in society and how I vote and how I care for other people on both an individual level and in what I'm engaged in on a collective level.
2 (34m 8s):
When I look at this past month for the Corona virus, and I see again, the human glory and the human shame, the selfishness and the self sacrifice I want to participate in love. And I believe that Paul's words to the Philippians have a lot to offer to us in understanding the way of love. So this week we had a chance to ask the question what impedes us from living this ideal life. And we'd like to distraction and fear and injustice.
2 (34m 42s):
There's much more to say on all of those topics, but all of them impede us from living lives of love. Next week, we're going to look at what allows us to live lives of love in this time, this time of social distancing, this time of the coronavirus, what allows us to live lives of love and what motivates us to live lives of love. I hope you'll be back. I hope you'll share this with friends and I hope we can continue to encourage each other to live lives with mutual self-sacrifice mutual esteem and mutual joy.
1 (35m 21s):
I just want to end with the reminder that love is stronger than fear. May we all understand more and more deeply the truth of that statement and the power of the love that fuels the universe and allows us to live in freedom without fear filled with the deep, deep love of God.
4 (35m 41s):
<inaudible>
1 (35m 48s):
Thanks again, for tuning in to the love is stronger than fear podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, you can find more resources at my website, Amy, Julia, becker.com. And if you found today's episode helpful, please share it with friends and take a minute to rate and review it wherever you find your podcasts. See you next week.