Love Is Stronger Than Fear with Amy Julia Becker

S3 E16 | Normie: What is Normal Through the Lens of Down Syndrome with Annemarie Carrigan and Kurt Neale

October 20, 2020 Annemarie Carrigan and Kurt Neale Season 3 Episode 16
Love Is Stronger Than Fear with Amy Julia Becker
S3 E16 | Normie: What is Normal Through the Lens of Down Syndrome with Annemarie Carrigan and Kurt Neale
Chapters
Love Is Stronger Than Fear with Amy Julia Becker
S3 E16 | Normie: What is Normal Through the Lens of Down Syndrome with Annemarie Carrigan and Kurt Neale
Oct 20, 2020 Season 3 Episode 16
Annemarie Carrigan and Kurt Neale

What is normal? Normie, a coming-of-age film about a young woman with Down syndrome, examines this question. Today, Annemarie Carrigan, the lead cast member of Normie, and Kurt Neale, the director and producer of the film, talk with Amy Julia about the illusions and reality of “normal,” the truth that all humans are broken and beloved, and how the creation of Normie changed how they viewed themselves and others.

SHOW NOTES:
Stream Normie from October 20-31, 2020: Go to amyjuliabecker.com and subscribe to receive monthly updates. You’ll receive an email with a link to watch Normie through Vimeo-on-Demand. (Be sure to check your spam folder if you don’t see the email in your inbox!)

Follow on social media: 

“Normie is about the illusion of normal and the beauty of love through the lens of Down syndrome.” - Annemarie

“[I hope that] People would flip the lens, so to speak, and look at themselves and not simply observe Annemarie being honest but people would be drawn into evaluation of themselves.” - Kurt

“Our world is such a mess. We’re screaming out that your identity is relative to your performance. That is a tragic lie...I find value in that I am created and loved by God, and I can also love others.” - Kurt

“I am loved. I am not normal. And I am just who I am. And I’m proud of that.” - Annemarie

“I am loved by God. That’s a fact. I don’t know how to explain how I feel loved by God because it’s unfathomable to think that God loves me and believes in me. It’s his word against mine.” - Annemarie

“Could it possibly be true that I’m far more loved than I ever dreamed possible? And that I can really love others through my own limitedness and brokenness?” - Kurt

On the Podcast:

Thank you to Breaking Ground, the co-host for this podcast.

White Picket Fences, Season 3 of Love is Stronger Than Fear, is based on my book White Picket Fences, and today we are talking about chapter 10. Check out free RESOURCESaction guide, discussion guides—that are designed to help you respond. Learn more about my writing and speaking at amyjuliabecker.com.

Show Notes Transcript

What is normal? Normie, a coming-of-age film about a young woman with Down syndrome, examines this question. Today, Annemarie Carrigan, the lead cast member of Normie, and Kurt Neale, the director and producer of the film, talk with Amy Julia about the illusions and reality of “normal,” the truth that all humans are broken and beloved, and how the creation of Normie changed how they viewed themselves and others.

SHOW NOTES:
Stream Normie from October 20-31, 2020: Go to amyjuliabecker.com and subscribe to receive monthly updates. You’ll receive an email with a link to watch Normie through Vimeo-on-Demand. (Be sure to check your spam folder if you don’t see the email in your inbox!)

Follow on social media: 

“Normie is about the illusion of normal and the beauty of love through the lens of Down syndrome.” - Annemarie

“[I hope that] People would flip the lens, so to speak, and look at themselves and not simply observe Annemarie being honest but people would be drawn into evaluation of themselves.” - Kurt

“Our world is such a mess. We’re screaming out that your identity is relative to your performance. That is a tragic lie...I find value in that I am created and loved by God, and I can also love others.” - Kurt

“I am loved. I am not normal. And I am just who I am. And I’m proud of that.” - Annemarie

“I am loved by God. That’s a fact. I don’t know how to explain how I feel loved by God because it’s unfathomable to think that God loves me and believes in me. It’s his word against mine.” - Annemarie

“Could it possibly be true that I’m far more loved than I ever dreamed possible? And that I can really love others through my own limitedness and brokenness?” - Kurt

On the Podcast:

Thank you to Breaking Ground, the co-host for this podcast.

White Picket Fences, Season 3 of Love is Stronger Than Fear, is based on my book White Picket Fences, and today we are talking about chapter 10. Check out free RESOURCESaction guide, discussion guides—that are designed to help you respond. Learn more about my writing and speaking at amyjuliabecker.com.

Note: This transcript is generated using speech recognition software and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

1 (4s):
Hi friends. I'm Amy Julia Becker and this is love is stronger than Fear a podcast about pursuing hope and healing in the midst of social division. And this season, we are talking about my book White Picket Fences and today's episode takes a look at the themes of chapter 10 beloved with my guests and Marie Carrigan. And Kurt Neale. I can't wait for you to meet both of these really special people and hear about the Film Normie that they have created.

0 (34s):
Sure.

1 (34s):
In today's episode of love is stronger than fear is really special. To me. It is the first time I've talked to two guests at the same time, and I will introduce them both in just a minute. And its also the first time than I've been here to talk about White Picket Fences in relation to a Film this is the exciting news today. What you're talking about, chapter 10 beloved and I have with me two of the creators of Normie, which is a documentary film about a young woman who is wrestling with her identity and wrestling with that, especially as it relates to having down syndrome. So it is my distinct honor to have Annemarie Carrigan who is the central character in this film, along with Kurt Neale the film's director.

1 (1m 19s):
I am so, so excited to see you both I'm here on zoom with you, even though our listeners can only hear your voices and I'm excited to see you and I'm excited to talk with you. So thank you for being here, right? To be here. Thanks for having to say Jay and Marie. I wanted to start with you and I want you to just introduce yourself. Can you tell us about a typical day in your life? Just so that listeners can get a sense of who you are and what your everyday life is like.

0 (1m 48s):
Thank you, Julia. My name is Emily. Yes, I am the main point of Normie in the film, but my typical day would look like I wake up. I go to work. I work as a receptionist, a Yeti it's called <inaudible> and I've been diagnosed at Texas and I'm 28. I am a car from never a book that I ever get my girlfriend now. And that is when humus me.

0 (2m 30s):
I loved it.

1 (2m 31s):
All of those things about you. I didn't know that you were working at a literary agency as a receptionist these days. I remember from the Film you were working at an ice cream store. Is, is that right? Yes. So this is, this is a new job. How are you finding it?

0 (2m 46s):
I begged him up and down for two years now. Okay. And I saw one is called. How do you know homemade? How about you heard of that from all the news? A sense interviews. Common. If they are a lot, I walked out for a summer. Are you in the summer? Okay. And then I quit there because I had another job opportunity, the book, the publishing company for two years now.

1 (3m 20s):
Wonderful. So I want to talk about this Film and I'm curious if you would be willing to just describe, like tell us about Normie what is this film about? What is your role in it? How would you explain it to someone?

0 (3m 35s):
So know me is about the illusion of normal and the beauty of love through the lens of dance Sandra. Yes, I am. The main character is a film as an owl and a half that mentally Film the Explorer.

1 (3m 54s):
That's awesome. How did you get involved? Like how did this come to you?

0 (3m 58s):
Well, if you want me feel in your mind and cut me off on his He director of Normie and we kind of connect, we connect the ed from a year. I experience in college in Philly, I, as an end time with him in his film production doing, and from there we Be came out. If you shut up together and we came up the idea doing a documentary film is the explorers, what your normal life.

1 (4m 36s):
Wow, that's so cool. I didn't even know that. And I should say, I haven't actually said this yet on this podcast. And some listeners we'll know this, but some would say that our family is also in the film. We play a very small part, compare it to you, but you And Kurt. And also Julie Neale, we were able to travel up to our town in Washington, Connecticut a couple of years ago in December. One of the things that was so fun about that Annemarie I remember is finding out that you loved the Gilmore girls and that the Gilmore girls is actually based on our town and area in Connecticut. So we thought that was really fun that you were here. And I remember also as a people who are coming up here from Texas, that it did snow.

1 (5m 20s):
And not that I don't know. Had you ever seen snow before?

0 (5m 23s):
Yes, I have. No. Before, you know,

1 (5m 25s):
That was still an unusual experience, right? To be in this like snowy Connecticut town. So for many reasons we loved participating in the Film and we loved getting to know you and having you all up here, but it was the Gilmore girls. I'm the snow made me very happy. All right. Well, so we'll get back to you in a second, but I do want to bring Kurt into the conversation and Kurt just ask you for a minute, like from your perspective, what prompted you to make this film? What is this film about? Just tell us a little bit more. So he has a long time family friend, her, we love their

2 (5m 58s):
Family, wonderful, wonderful people. And so we we're friends way back, but as Annemarie said, we reconnected when Emery was an in college and the idea of her internship fostered this rekindled relationship and the idea, I think honestly evolved around this deep thing and me not feeling Normal myself. If you, you can say that I've always felt a bit like an outcast one way or another. I had dyslexia that struggled with a different issues and Anne Marie, as we were working together was so uniquely honest about things that this idea of exploring together as honestly as we could, what Normal really is along with this deep desire to be loved that I have.

2 (6m 55s):
And I know Ann Marie share's that and that's how it really began and it more from there.

1 (7m 1s):
Hmm. That's really cool. I'm going to pause for just a minute here to, because I want listeners to know that they are able for a limited time to actually watch Normie for the most part, normie has been out for a couple of years, but has been available for screening in groups. And for the next 10 days, October 20th, through October 31st in honor of down syndrome awareness month Normie is going to be available for streaming. And if you are a listener and you want to be able to stream Normie in your own living room, just subscribed to my monthly updates, you are going to go to Amy Julia becker.com hit subscribe, and we will send you an email with a link for how you can watch Normie Through Vimeo on demand.

1 (7m 48s):
And I will include all this information and the SHOW NOTES I'll remind you again at the end, but I wanted to let you know, at the front end of this conversation that you get to watch this film, which honestly is really beautiful. I was saying to Annemarie and Kurt before we started recording this call that obviously I was in the Film and I have seen at a couple of times when it's been awhile, since I've watched it and yet so many scenes are so vivid in my memory and really their really beautiful and they're, they're simple, but they are profound and they weave together a really compelling story and worry about your life. But also they really bring, I think, any viewer into the, exactly those questions What is normal.

1 (8m 28s):
Why do I think I need to be Normal is anyone Normal and what is the beauty of love and how does that work into all of this? So anyway, thank you both for that. And for your beautiful work, I'm now curious, just to ask you all, what would you hope that a viewer of Normie would learn or think about in, in result of watching it as home?

2 (8m 52s):
Annemarie we've talked a lot about that and I think it would be great if your answer to that.

0 (8m 57s):
OK. I hope viewers, we see not only eyes that we are a week and working out in a way, but we are loved by God. And I hope that viewers would see that knowing its normal and to let you go, Down

1 (9m 23s):
Let your guard down. Do you feel like I'm interested in Emory or are you using those words? Like let your guard down because one of the things Curt just said about You is that you're as someone who's really honest and I think there's a relationship there like that you may be, I guess here's my question. Do you feel like you walk around with your guard up or down or is it like it's down when it's with people I trust, but up with other people?

0 (9m 46s):
Yes. That's where it, you explain it. It was really a, when I'm around other people. I, my God that sometimes when I'm alone, people that I know And, you know, me pretty much really well, my God Down.

1 (10m 3s):
And so what does that mean? Like when you let your guard down, what are you willing to do or say or give, how was it different for you two? Let your guard down.

0 (10m 14s):
So like myself, is that a wall that I built myself up into a big tic wall and I don't that my emotions show it to other people, but when I'm the family and my son's friends, that that take what Down. So I can't, yeah. My emotions are a little, a bit more.

1 (10m 43s):
Yeah. And we get a view of that in the film, like you showed us your emotions and I think it's a real invitation for other people to do the same thing, to find trusted people and let our guard down. And then what happened or what at least I saw in Normie is that then there's like a building of connection that can come, right? Like when we're vulnerable and let our guard down, we are on the one hand we risk getting hurt. But on the other hand, we open ourselves up for love and connection. Ah, and so there's, it's often with people we trust that's a risk worth taking. It seems to me heard. How about you? What, what's your hope for viewers in watching Normie

2 (11m 26s):
You want people to flip the lens, so to speak and look at themselves and not simply observe Amery, being honest, but people would be drawn into evaluating themselves. Like I was, I've been drawn into evaluating myself and the process, certainly making a film and with their friends that have been involved in the film in a fundamentally, I, this deep longing AGA about wanting believe that I'm truly loved simply because a child of God, the classic Mago DEI, if you will, in our world is such a mess in so many friends were screaming out your identity, his relative to your performance.

2 (12m 12s):
And I think that's a tragic lie, candidly. So I want people to be looking in the, the flip, the lens of the cameras, if you will, and evaluate, Hey, wait a minute. What makes me valuable? And is it possible? I can share in the experience of loving others and in short find value and I'm created and loved by God and I can also love others.

1 (12m 40s):
Yeah. That's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this week was I've mentioned that chapter in White Picket, Fences called beloved because for me having a child with down syndrome, you all both know, penny really pushed me to ask that question. What does it mean for us to be human? What does it mean for us to be connected in our humanity and Ann Marie? You mentioned a brokenness. And I think that is certainly a way we connect as humans to one another, but there's also this belovedness that the more and more I thought about it and that idea of being created in the image of God, the more and more I thought about the passage where it says God is love. So what if it means for us to be created in the image of God, is that we are created in Love four.

1 (13m 25s):
Love like, that's what it means to be human is that we can give and receive love. And I think about Annemarie you just saying, like, when you let your guard down and for any of us, we build those walls up and its a wall against Hirt, but it's also a wall against, it can be a wall against love. And if we let those Down that's when that humanity and that love can, can come out. I want to come back to that in a minute, but Annemarie I wanted to ask you first about the title of the Film because I think it comes from you, there's at least a line in the film where you are talking about people and calling them normies. So I'm wondering if you can just explain what you mean when you call someone and Normie and What or at least what you meant in the Film.

1 (14m 5s):
I don't know if you would still say that when are mean to say know me. So outside of me and are trying to meet in this society. I Normie know many people, the good, the new moon people in this society and with me, they have in the room, I'm not normal. And that's why I wanted to say Normie to me is the people around me know me. And did you feel like that was always true for you or did you come to a place in your life where you all of a sudden thought, wait a second.

1 (14m 55s):
I feel different than the people around me.

0 (14m 59s):
Yeah. I and Nate and knife. I feel that way that wait a minute, people around me on your Normal and I'm not normal. But before then I felt really, really odd the way that I wasn't known and I didn't experience what normal, what, what

1 (15m 29s):
And do, was that something where you want, like you wished you could be Normal

0 (15m 35s):
Yes. I wanted to be normal. I wanted to be anybody because I've not had down syndrome because I am others in the class. I have other stuff that I really wanted to do. I would you go into a car and from your current program and, and when you need all these other stuff that my disability, it will allow me to do.

1 (16m 2s):
And in terms of making the film, did that change at all your feelings about what is Normal or whether you were normal or not like it did that, does that change at all from making this film?

0 (16m 16s):
It did. Surprisingly, if they're being around Kurt himself, he brought out either to try to me that I ever shopping for. I saw the decided means that I am loud. I am not normal. And I am that's who I am and I'm proud of a lot.

1 (16m 42s):
Hmm. Yeah. I remember. I think you and I even talked about this when you were at our house that I also, you talked in the film about feeling lonely and about some of those questions and dreams that aren't, weren't getting fulfilled. And I don't want to say that has nothing to do with your disability. Cause I don't think that's true, but I also wanted to say, Oh my gosh, like, yeah, coz I think when you came up here, you were 21. It's like, there are so many 21 year olds who are feeling lonely and who are watching Netflix and wish they were out on the town and who are just asking all those questions. I mean I'm 43 and I'm still asking a lot of those questions. And I think I'm hearing from Curt that he is also asking those questions.

1 (17m 22s):
So it's almost like, because you have down syndrome, there's like a magnifying glass on your experience, but it's also related to that experience of being human and of saying, why don't I fit perfectly because that's what I want to do desperately right in the world. And yet, then that struggle to say, what, what would it mean for me to believe that I'm a beloved as I am. So in Murray, how do you think about having down syndrome? Is that something that you see as entirely negative? Is it something you see as positive? Is it something that you see? It's just like a fact about you,

0 (17m 59s):
To be honest. I know I have Down from Normie yes. I am in charge one to two people who are local that I am, who I am faced with me two about that, because I don't want to be neighbored as down. It's a little in CAD it and I just don't really be labored. I would you be who I am, I've shot what you do, other stops. And I feel like, and I don't mow. I feel like I need such two people up in the society.

1 (18m 39s):
Tell me, I guess, what can you think of an experience? And you might not have this and that's fine. But can you think of an experience when you felt like you were different than other people because of having done

0 (18m 53s):
Well, that's a good question in your Julia. Yes. It was an experience. I didn't play a play date, detailed stuff that I'm going to say. So in high school, in on time ago I was in choir singing and stuff and theirs. They want to teach her that is a choir director down. And he told friends of people that I knew me and my other friends that I just started to. I'm just seeing clients in.

0 (19m 33s):
Right. Because we don't have it seen as we read it, to be honest, we sounded like diving into your coming out of the water.

1 (19m 48s):
Well, I did. And is that how you thought of it at the time that you thought of his self as sounding like a dying seal? Okay.

0 (19m 54s):
Yes. And that's why he keeps her sad. You stay quiet.

1 (20m 1s):
Yeah. Did you feel like he was willing to work with you as a student? No. No. I mean, I think there's a lot of like, did he believe in you and wanna see you grow up in your abilities? Mmm. And believe in your potential, are, was he just like be in the corner and be cool?

0 (20m 20s):
Yeah. Being according to be quiet, he doesn't really believe in my I've been a leader scene.

1 (20m 25s):
And was that an experience for you that happened like often as you were growing up?

0 (20m 31s):
Not very often. That was one occasion are times that I was being bullied in high school. Okay,

1 (20m 41s):
Sure. So there's, I'm thinking about one of my favorite scenes in the Film and you're talking to a, and he is talking about how he doesn't think anyone is normal and that we're all broken. And at this point in the film, you use your hands, you put them on your head and kind of extend them out to the sides and make us sound like, just show that your brain is like exploding with ideas. Do you remember the scene I'm talking about? So I think what you guys are talking in that scene about that sense of what does it mean for all of us to have things in common and what if, what if that is deeper than you having down syndrome in me?

1 (21m 21s):
Not right. And that, yes, we're both broken, but we're also both beloved. And you've mentioned even in this interview, believing that we're loved by God as we are. And so I'm curious to just hear what you think about, like, do you think of yourself as someone who his beloved and does that loved by God and how does that affect, how are you?

0 (21m 46s):
Yeah. You ate that. I was cutting my hair and then coming, I, you know, at the end, you know, that is what I called in my mind explosion. So psych your mind is just exploding into a million pieces. And that to me is what I is kind of a nice explosion because as a lot of ideas coming into a brain and then leaving an odd out. So I'm not by God. And that is the fact. And if I, that does seem still a or how I see myself and, and I don't know how to explain why I feel I'm not by God because it's not done to think that God loves me, that he believes in half.

0 (22m 50s):
So its hard to do to expand because it's his word against mine, but I see. Yeah.

1 (22m 58s):
All right. So in other words, I mean, this is true for me. I believe that God loves me and I don't believe that every day. Like I want that to be true. And yet I also don't believe it all the time. And I think I'm thinking back to what Kurt was saying about how we live in a society where the way we know we are lovable is by what we are, how we perform, what we achieve, what we can do. And yet I think what we've also, I know I've experienced in my life is even when I've done all these things, I still have that sense of insecurity. And the place where that security comes from is actually the love of God.

1 (23m 40s):
Not from the achievements in the world. I'm curious Curt to know whether you were experience of making this film changed your own understanding of that idea of belovedness.

2 (23m 55s):
I think it drew me deeper into the question. Our resonate with the I the idea and really the thought that you shared AIG around I believe, but every day I don't believe. And the process for me in filmmaking as it was with Annemarie is every bit as important as the finished product of the film and the process of us all together. Many friends collaborating, drew me all of the more and to make a, my imperfections, my anxieties were exposed more than ever. And at the same time, this overwhelming need, I have to truly be loved for me simply being in the way.

2 (24m 38s):
So I think that it changed me. I'm almost 65 years old now and I thought I'd be better, smarter, have more answers. And quite the opposite is true on so many friends. The one thing that I can say in this Film process with Hamri and others took me further down the road of how I'm longing to believe really, really, truly that I'm loved simply because God grade. But I must tell you that the process of even making this film lead to more brokenness or more expos, a show of imperfection, I think is the connection that we've had even with you guys up in Connecticut and with Josh white and a big shout out to David's Esau and Mockingbird for connecting us with you and Josh white, we've all become friends.

2 (25m 32s):
Its amazing how these things happen. But I would say its the process have the awareness of our brokenness or limitedness, you know, we talked a lot about that as well and the different, but how that draws us all into, Oh my God, can it really be true that you love us? You win, you love us because we are yours. And how would say that the big thing for me in making this film, my J is all the more being drawn into the awareness of Could it possibly be true that I, I'm far more luck than I ever dreamed possible and that I can really love others through my limitedness and brokenness.

1 (26m 11s):
Yeah. So thank you for that. Both of you Kurt I'd love to hear or just the process you went through, you just kind of made reference to it. So I wanted to pick up on this in terms of who you talked to and who is in this film because I've mentioned there's a pastor and us and you also interview as a medical doctor as well as what I would typically call them magician. I think he called himself an illusionist or is that right? Is that what he goes into? Can you explain a little bit about who these different characters are, but also how you decided who was going to be included, you know,

2 (26m 46s):
Story? Yeah. I'd love to be able to give you some rate, you know, a plan that I came up with the, that would be the biggest lie in the world. All the films that we make are around opportunity that comes up in front of is, and then we start, I call it throwing spaghetti on the wall and we try to see what sticks his eye. He has already mentioned David Esau and his connection with you and Josh. The illusionist really gifted guy came through a really good friend. Who's also in the Film Katie Anderson, your son and Katy is one of those unique people that super creative and knows people. So she said, Hey, I know this guy, I think we could have him in the Film.

2 (27m 30s):
We told him and he jumped on board like you did. And I I would say that the beauty of vulnerability that Annemarie brings to the table and that I'm trying to be more like hammering me in that regard opens opportunity to connect with other people. And when people would hear what we're doing, they're going, Oh, well man, I'm in and I'm not, I've struggled with feeling. So that's how it will happen. It's this process of trying to be authentic and vulnerable and then the mess that's created around that and the need to come back and apologize and make amends and all that breeds a beautiful, beautiful mess.

2 (28m 13s):
I think we're all going to use another word that worked well from a very, with it that I'm sure you don't want on your show.

1 (28m 23s):
Okay. We'll keep it at that. But it's actually Annemarie I see one other thing that I was thinking about, which I guess this scene is a in the trailer. So it's also in the film that you all have a went to see the total solar eclipse that happened a few years ago when you went together and its such a beautiful scene. Annemarie I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that experience of, I mean, how you guys, I mean, I don't, what's the story? How, how did you end up there together and what was their experience like for you? Well, it wasn't a day trip up to Nashville to eat with Kirk and your family up there to be in the sauna.

1 (29m 8s):
Wow. So, so, you know, and now I feel, I just kind of needs to be active before the quarter. And so umm, we get up there and two Film that and some of that got, if you have to know, he kind of bought into the NASA. Okay. And then, but so what do you remember being there like yourself? Yes I did. And what, what was it like for you? I'm so I have literally put it on my calender the next time.

1 (29m 48s):
There is a solar eclipse. That's enough for me to drive too. It, I think it's in 20, 24 because I just had heard so much after that eclipse, like how incredible it was. So I'd love to hear just what was that experience like?

0 (30m 2s):
So for me it was once of a lifetime experience for me and she told her shoulder claps, you know? Yes, I've seen pops, have it in Dallas personally, what do you know? But it is, is see the total eclipse is the whole thing. We, we do a great experience from your C and being there with people that I've known. And then if there's no word to describe how I experience and seeing it,

1 (30m 39s):
I think what I love so much about that scene is that you are saying like, don't you quit on me. Right? Like you're talking to the son and you're saying, I do not want the light and the light to go out. Like I don't want this darkness to com but then when the sun gets fully covered by the moon, it's really beautiful. Right? So like this thing that you don't want is also really, I mean, and then you just go, Oh wow. This sense of the thing I was resisting is actually what I really wanted. And I felt like that moment encapsulates the film so much in terms of all of us saying essentially like, I don't wanna be me.

1 (31m 21s):
I don't, in your case, like I don't want to be someone with down syndrome or in Kurt case. Like I don't want to feel like God ball or in my case, I don't want to be a perfectionist who never can get it. Right. Like, and yet there's that sense of like when we surrender to what's happening, we can sometimes see the beauty, right? Like this, that there was just this moment of like resist, resist, resist, and then beauty. And I loved the way I'm in Kurt I love the way you captured that. Annemarie again, you were So out there. And so honest with what you were experiencing while you watch that, that it brought everybody else into that moment. And it was bigger than just the eclipse. It's like, yeah, that's my life saying, don't quit on me.

1 (32m 4s):
Don't quit on me, please, please. Please know. And then the thing happens that I don't want and not always, but sometimes that's exactly what I needed. So anyway, that's just, again, one of my favorite scenes and I felt like since it's part of it's in the trailer, I'm not giving too much away to share it here. So I want to conclude this conversation just by asking a little bit more about growing up with down syndrome in America, because October is down syndrome awareness month and you've spoken a little bit about what its been like us to grow up with down syndrome. But you also are in this position. You're a little bit older, almost 10 years older than our daughter, penny, but you're 20 years younger than me.

1 (32m 46s):
So you're in this kind of new generation of people with down syndrome who are going to school. You're a great testimony to this, go on to college, going to get jobs and be in the workplace. I know that they're all sorts of hopes and dreams that you have for your life. So I'm just wondering, are there things that you would like for people to know about what it is like to have that right.

0 (33m 10s):
<inaudible> and I'm not going to, I, I show what you bring it, the fact that I'm allowed a new book about that also. I didn't know that. Yeah I am. And its kind of for a young adult, what are you wanting? Do you had the inside scoop on 'em we are doing with it giving butts to people at Don Syndrome and that's a pretty much talk to about me influence young adults in knowing that that side of my side with down to them might have delayed DOT's and the day stuff, you know, and I want people to, you know, that, you know, unknown and a knife.

0 (34m 4s):
And I am know, I, I am more, so much who I am as such, because of my disability. We get the down syndrome and yeah, S, I am 10 yards older than penny and plenty are gone with a meal and, and, and that middle of the dive where I am struggling with work and getting a massage is and getting out there and being in favor of you to dance and to help the new age there coming to the fact that is okay, you have to grow them.

0 (34m 51s):
And that's two be who you are kind of thing. So currently I'm as in the process of getting pitched out to public, getting out there.

1 (35m 5s):
Yeah. So have you actually written like a proposal or the written? The whole thing. Okay. And is it about your own experience of like birth until now?

0 (35m 20s):
Yeah, so it was Paul. You have it, it is both Two now, but also if it's a PA about it, I wanted to be a chef, a young parents, great. Expecting a new baby with Down sunglasses and you don't know are showing them that as well.

1 (35m 43s):
You have a baby with down syndrome. And so our, you, are you giving them advice or are you describing your experience? So they know, look at this wonderful human being

0 (35m 56s):
Is a two edge with that. So

1 (36m 1s):
Awesome. Well, I look forward to reading it whenever it comes out and I hope it that the publishing experience there as well, we need to awesome. I M often think about how I feel like there was a generation of people actually a little bit older than me who did the work to make sure that people with down syndrome were able to go to school and there was a lot of work done. And I feel like we're now at this new threshold of people, like you saying, okay. And when school is over jobs, we can do that. You know, and just continuing to really break down barriers within our societies. I'm really grateful for that work. And even just for your willingness in the Film and obviously in you're writing and speaking to be honest about what's hard, but also about what's possible for people with down syndrome.

1 (36m 53s):
And I think for our whole society, what my hope and dream is, my prayer is, is that we would really be able to see not just the disability aspect of people with down syndrome or like the challenges and what can be hard, but also just the real gifts. And I think your experience testifies to that just two, the gift that it is to know you and to have you in the world. I'm certainly glad for that. So thank you very much for the work that you've done, both of you for creating this film. It's been a real delight for our family to participate in it and get to know you all.

1 (37m 34s):
But even, I can't really say I'm an objective observer because obviously I was in the Film, but I do think that it's a really beautiful piece of art. That's also very accessible. I know lots of people who've seen it and many of whom do not have a specific connection to Down Syndrome and yet who felt they really could connect, which goes back to the fact that you all weren't talking about having down syndrome so much, as you were talking about being human and wrestling with what it means to be these vulnerable, limited, broken and beloved a human being's who are struggling everyday to both protect ourselves and to connect with each other.

1 (38m 18s):
So thanks for doing that.

0 (38m 20s):
Thank you. Thank you.

1 (38m 22s):
Yeah. And thank you for being here and talking with us today. I am certain that listeners are going to love hearing from you and our going to want to go and watch it.

0 (38m 30s):
Normie thanks again. Has, has been a real privilege.

1 (38m 38s):
Absolutely. Alright. Well last thing is to both of you. Thanks. Thanks so much for listening to love is stronger than fear. I want to remind you again, that if you want a chance to watch Normie and believe me, you do want this chance you can do so. And you can do so only for a limited time from Today October 20th, through October 31st, you will need to subscribe to my monthly [email protected] And then we will send you an email with the link so that you can Stream the film in your own living room. We we'll be sure to note to other references in the SHOW NOTES and give you just links to that. What I just said, I'd love for you as always not just to share the episode, but share this opportunity to see the film Normie because it's a great one.

1 (39m 27s):
I also wanna thank our cohost breaking ground. Thank J Canson for editing and Amber's Barry for doing all of the social media work that goes alongside the SHOW. And next week, a little preview. I we'll be talking about chapter 11 of White Picket Fences and this chapter is called possibilities. We are gonna be talking with Nicole Fulgham founder and executive director of the expectations project. So for anyone who is interested in how we can support the most vulnerable kids within our public school system and how we can create opportunities for everyone to learn and grow this conversation is for you. And I hope you'll join us. And as always, as you go into your day, I hope you'll carry with you.

1 (40m 11s):
The peace that comes from believing that love is stronger than this

3 (40m 15s):
<inaudible>.