Reimagining the Good Life with Amy Julia Becker

S4 E11 | Making Art in a Broken World with Makoto Fujimura

March 30, 2021 Makoto Fujimura Season 4 Episode 11
Reimagining the Good Life with Amy Julia Becker
S4 E11 | Making Art in a Broken World with Makoto Fujimura
Show Notes Transcript

What is the role of art in bringing hope and healing to the fractures of our world? Makoto Fujimura, a leading contemporary artist and the author of Art+Faith, talks with Amy Julia about creating beauty through brokenness, the art of waiting and making, and how the theology of God’s new creation transforms communities of Christ.

Show Notes:
Makoto Fujimura is the author of Art+Faith: A Theology of Making, and his “art has been featured widely in galleries and museums around the world, and is collected by notable collections including The Museum of Contemporary Art in Tokyo, The Huntington Library as well as Tikotin Museum in Israel.” Connect online:

On the Podcast:

"I consider what I do to be prayer and theological work as much as aesthetic work, so I’ve always felt the presence of God in my studio, in the practice of making."

"It becomes essential conversation for us to find our thriving. What does it mean to be a human being today, let alone a Christian? The arts fundamentally can bring us to a deeper conversation."

”We are not going back to pre-pandemic normal. It’s a new world. It’s a world in which we have all suffered—and we have all shared in the suffering—and, therefore, we have an opportunity to create communities that would both nurture and protect those broken places and really be able to share because of our brokenness...A Kintsugi master even amplifies or exposes the fractures but does it in a beautiful way. And can we do that as communities, especially communities of Christ?”

"Waiting is such an important part of art. You cannot have music without pauses. You cannot have choreography without the body stopping. And so being still, finding that still point of the turning world, as TS Elliot writes, is very much at the heart of every art form."

"If we are not making, we are consuming."
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Thank you to Breaking Ground, the co-host for this podcast.

Head, Heart, Hands, Season 4 of the Love Is Stronger Than Fear podcast, is based on my e-book Head, Heart, Hands, which accompanies White Picket Fences. Check out free

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Thanks for listening!

Note: This transcript is autogenerated using speech recognition software and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

Makoto (5s):
So as I began to connect what I do in the studio with theology, I, it just, the entire thing opened up for me to really just walks through my own darkness and brokenness and, and be able to experience God's presence in that very hard place.

Amy Julia (29s):
And I'm Amy, Julia Becker. And this is love is stronger than fear. A podcast about pursuing hope and healing in the midst of social division. This season, we've been talking about how we can respond to the brokenness in our own lives and in our society with our heads, hearts and hands. So if you've been listening in the past couple of months, we've talked about racism in the church and in our society, we've talked about disability and healing. We've talked about politics and insurrection and evangelicalism, and today's conversation fits in with all of those topics, but it's a different lens. It's a different angle. And as it happens, it's the right conversation. Or at least it was for me as we enter into Holy week, because in this conversation, I talked with the artist Makoto Fujimura and we talked about injustice and pain and horror, but we also got to talk about the work of making, of bringing beauty and goodness into the world of imagining and participating in new creation.

Amy Julia (1m 31s):
I am really grateful, and I think you will be too, that I get to head towards good Friday and Easter Sunday with these thoughts Today, it is my great pleasure and honor to welcome Makoto Fujimura. He is both an author and a visual artist and a man of deep and thoughtful Christian faith. His latest book is art and faith, a theology of making. And I am so glad that he is with us here today. Mako, welcome.

Makoto (2m 2s):
Thank you for having me.

Amy Julia (2m 4s):
So this what I'm going to call a little book that I have sitting here on my desk, art and faith. It's about 150 pages and it is so densely packed with things to think about and reflect upon. I am so grateful. I had a long period of time to read it and really savor the words and the thoughts that you were able to convey through it. And I'm really, I can't believe I get to talk to you about it. It's so exciting. But before we do that, I did want to introduce you as a visual artist, because I think that understanding how you make your art and how you think about that will give a little bit of an introduction to you for anyone who doesn't know you. And I also think it will give an introduction. It will frame the conversation about your book as well.

Amy Julia (2m 46s):
So could you talk about the art that you make and the way that you make it?

Makoto (2m 51s):
Well, thank thank you for that. First of all, and thank you for having me. I am a visual artist. I consider myself an first and all of my writings flow out of my studio experience. So that's, that's important to know. No, and even when I talk about in the book plus faith with which is my life work condensed in 150 pages, and, and it's really a beginning of a journey into theology of making or a theology of new creation and call.

Makoto (3m 33s):
And it really flows right out of my, my studio work, which is often been called slow art because the materials I use very traditional materials used in Japan, 17th century, Japan, I even, but I combine that with space, age materials. And, and what I do is show in contemporary gallery. So, so it's a common conversation taking tradition and especially the Japanese tradition and bringing it into 21st century context.

Makoto (4m 16s):
And since I consider what I do to be prayer and theological work, as much as aesthetic work, I've always felt the presence of God in my studio, in the practice of making. And so everything that I speak about in a book is connected to that. But as, as you know, we live in a very fractured time and polarized times, and I've been thinking a lot about wrote of artists and arts in such a world where culture is culture Wars and how we can begin to find reconciliation and heating, even in the midst of that.

Makoto (5m 6s):
And, and now with the pandemic, we have amplified that I think in, in, in, in ways that it becomes an essential conversation for, for us to find our thriving, what does it mean to, you know, be a human being today that alone a Christian and you know, those, those two connected and, and so, so the arts fundamentally can bring us to a deeper conversation.

Amy Julia (5m 45s):
Yeah. So can you give us a little window into that process of the conversation between 17th century techniques, not the right word tradition and contemporary art non-representational abstract art, however you want to name it.

Makoto (6m 4s):
Yeah. So my previous book to plus faith was book called silence and beauty, where I journey through my experience of being in Japan and dealing with Japanese history, especially of the Christian persecution that started in, you know, 17th century, early 17th century, that lasted 250 years. And it became a feature film. Martin Scorsese's fell in silence. And I was asked to be a special adviser for the film because of my Nottage of that period. And also my knowledge of endo, who she was again, though, who wrote the novel sinus in 1966.

Makoto (6m 51s):
And he's a Japanese Catholic writer who wrote this book about persecution of Christians in 17th century. And we came up the perennial bestseller in Japan, which is hard to understand why, but I explained in a book why it is such a important recognition by even the Japanese that the hidden faith deeply hidden reality still play plays a major role in Japanese aesthetic. During the time of my studies as a national scholar in Japan as a graduate student, w was, it was time when I began to seriously encounter faith.

Makoto (7m 41s):
And so, so really I, my Christian faith is tied with Japanese history. And so it was an exploration of both that I wrote about and art faith. When I was writing this, I had in background, my other book called care, which is a series of lectures. I've been giving since 2001 on understanding that the role and purpose of an artist in such such a time post post nine 11 world. And, and that, that was, you know, public lectures.

Makoto (8m 24s):
So I don't go too deeply into theology or even how my faith is connected with these principles of thriving, human, thriving, but this, this book then faith that does that.

Amy Julia (8m 41s):
Yeah, there's so much there that I want to ask you about, but I also want to address this kind of head off the podcast this way, because usually when I'm having these conversations, I'm talking with people who are pretty directly involved the work of social justice. So I've talked to pastors or nonprofit leaders, even scholars, but who are writing directly about race or politics or disability. And the reason I wanted to bring your voice into the conversation is because I do think your work really does directly address issues surrounding justice, mercy, beauty, but it does so in a different way. And it does so through this theology of making and practice of making.

Amy Julia (9m 23s):
And so I'd love to hear you talk about how a theology of making is a theology that is related and a practice that's related to justice and love and healing in the real world.

Makoto (9m 34s):
Yeah. So my, my bride Hejin is a attorney who founded embers international, which is a whole bunch of lawyers working with IJM to STEM human trafficking in the world. And so we, we talk a lot about the relationship between beauty and justice, and really, as I note in the book, beauty, justice and mercy ways that in a way doesn't make sense in a Darwinian survival, you know, environment.

Makoto (10m 14s):
And, and yeah, when you talk to people like Asian and people who are invested with their whole life, really her life work is this, there there's a underlying thesis that connects justice to beauty. And, you know, she, she deals with traffic children in India, and she says, well, it's not enough to liberate them from their enslavement.

Makoto (10m 55s):
We, our work continues until that person can see themselves beautiful. So we talk about Kentucky at art, which is a venerable teacher edition that ways of mending broken bowls, Japanese way, or mending broken bulls. It's not to fix it and make it perfect, but to highlight the fractures with gold in Japan lacquer so that the ending bore is a new design, really highlighting and amplifying the, the, the cracks.

Makoto (11m 37s):
And, and, and, and to me, that's, that's, that's one of the chapters in the book. That's very important because Christ post resurrection appearance says his nail marks still with him, which, which is a remarkable reality that we often miss. When we talk about Easter, that Jesus chooses to remain human and not only human, but, and of course in a post who has a good body. So it's different type of humanity, but you know, it, he chooses to keep the wounds.

Makoto (12m 19s):
He's a wounded human, and yeah, through his wounds, we are healed. And through this, following this post resurrected Christ is what Christians are asked to do and imagine, and create out of. And God's invitation for us to be makers begins that moment of, you know, visitation or a meeting with this resurrected, a new body of Christ. And we are told that we are a new creation in Christ. And that, that is a very powerful notion that often gets dismissed as something that is renewal.

Makoto (13m 7s):
You know, redemption is seen as something that is restorative, but it's a fixing of the brokenness. We, we move away from our wounds and we, we have this notion that we can fix things and be back in Eden somehow when really the biblical narrative is saying, no, we're, we're building the city of God, the city garden of God. And that is our role to play in, in, in the new creation. God doesn't do it automatically. God, God is waiting for us because of Jesus's commitment to humanity.

Makoto (13m 49s):
We are given the keys to unlock some of the realities and new creation that God chooses not to open until we decide by faith to begin. So work of justice is part of this new creation buildup of the city of God. Now we don't put, he understand that in that same way, that I don't understand how, when I create beauty, that is somehow already part of the new creation, but that's, that's what the biblical faith is, is projecting. And that, that is what it is saying to us as we journey with a post resurrection Christ in, in, in this new way.

Amy Julia (14m 36s):
Well, it seems to me, they're kind of two aspects too. I mean, many aspects, but two aspects that are coming to the forefront of my mind as you talk. And one is that sense. And you write about this in the book, that there are things that we are participating in and doing right now that will remain. I mean, th th there's a passage in, I think it's first Corinthians where the gold remains, the hay gets burned up, but the gold remains. And so justice beauty, which is an interesting thing, again, it's not utilitarian, right? It's, I'm just speaking to something true about love and goodness that beauty will remain. But then I'm also thinking about in terms of not going back to Eden, we're not trying to recreate what God has already created.

Amy Julia (15m 20s):
It's a new creation. And within that creation, there is beauty in what was once brokenness using that consumed the image or the image of Jesus. And I'm thinking back, I had a different interview with a woman named Luanne Huska at the beginning of this season. And she mentioned that when Margaret Mead was interviewed and asked when they knew that like a civilization had become civilization, it was when they saw evidence of a grave with a broken bone that had mended, right. That like the, the humanity comes out when we care for one another in our brokenness. And I, I can't give up on that image and, and how it relates to Jesus, his wounds and to the consumer.

Amy Julia (16m 7s):
I just, and that sense of the brokenness remains because of how beautiful the mending is. And even more beautiful than on some level, the, the bone in the first place or the bowl in the first place or the body.

Makoto (16m 22s):
Exactly. I, that's a beautiful example, Margaret, you know, noting that, that, that, you know, for this person to, for a femur or this person, must've been protected by a community, and that is a sign of a civilization. And, and, and that's a beautiful image of a community period. And you know, what we should be thinking about in post pandemic, rural communities and churches is, is to have that image in mind that we have all been affected by this.

Makoto (17m 3s):
And they can some way traumatized in some cases, and it is the worker community that can put together not, not to go back to normal. You know, they, they're not going to be eating normal in the same way. We are not going out to, you know, pretty pandemic normal. It's a new world. And, and though it's about, but it's a world in which we have all suffered and we have all shared in that suffering. And therefore we have an opportunity to create, create communities that would both nurture and protect those broken places, but really be able to share because of our brokenness, you know, they it's, it's, it's again, the consigliere manager of mending to make new, as different from fixing it to hide the flaws, right.

Makoto (18m 5s):
It can Seamaster even amplifies and exposes the fractures, but does it in a beautiful way. And, and can we do that as communities, especially communities of Christ? I think that's, that's, that's the most important question to ask right now?

Amy Julia (18m 23s):
Well, and I'm thinking about the role of beauty in healing. I actually, the first time I was introduced to your work was I remember it very distinctly because it was 2003. And I was, you know, in my mid twenties, newly married, relatively. And I was living in my mother-in-law's house with my husband in new Orleans because she was dying of liver cancer. And a friend of mine sent me a magazine. And I, I, it was a Christian magazine. I don't even know what it was. I can remember not one word that was written in that magazine, but the entire magazine was art that you had created that was about hope and heaven, or that was evocative of that at least.

Amy Julia (19m 7s):
And that looking at your paintings, even in, on a magazine cover and through magazine pages, which of course is not even remotely the experience of what it would be to see them in person, nevertheless, was a, an experience of healing for me because of the way it was indirect. It wasn't let me, it wasn't trying to fix the grief. Right. It was just an invitation to think that there might be hope in the midst of the grief, beyond the grief within the grief. And I am just thinking about the, I think one of the ways you write about that in the book is the difference between plumbing theology and at the theology of making.

Amy Julia (19m 49s):
And I think it would be helpful to explain plumbing theology and the theology of making, which is you've already started talking about it. But I think that it's funny when you're reading your book and it's full of so many beautiful words and that you get to the word plumbing and you're like, Whoa, what's going on here, but it's perfect for what you're describing. So can you say more about that?

Makoto (20m 6s):
Yes. First of all, thank you for sharing that. I, it means a lot to me when people have these tangible ways that my work or, you know, the message I'm trying to send out. And, and that, that came out because of the fractures of nine 11. I mean, I, I was three blocks away. My children became grounds children who were in the midst of suffering and, and trauma. And we're trying to get back to, you know, some semblance of normality, but, and I, whenever I painted during that time, I was very aware and even heightened awareness of my own struggles, but, but also the universal longing that we all have and understand and see too, and trying to fix it, move, move away, or, you know, just ignore it.

Makoto (21m 6s):
Or, and I was preaching to my own heart that, you know, you really have to understand this darkness and exotic feel in order to be able to communicate well. So, so, so your, your, your comments, we mean optimi the, yeah. The blowing theology, or do you respect the plumber is one of the greatest comments I've gotten out of my book was, was by a plumber, a plumber, I think, in Kentucky or somewhere out there.

Makoto (21m 48s):
And he said, you know, when I read your book, I, I so resonated with the plumbing section because I'm a plumber ready to apologize. He said, no, no, no, it's, it's, it's the key. You said Kentucky plumber. That's me. You know, I, my father taught me that it's not about plumbing. It's about people, you know, when you fixing pipes, you, you, if you're, if you're aware, if you make yourself aware, you know, that there are things going on in the house and you, you want to pray for them. You want to be, you know, in the, the, you know, however God allows you, you, you you're, you're there to serve people.

Makoto (22m 30s):
And, and you know, that that's so beautiful, right? So I'm glad that I used the term. You know, I, I, I, the way I describe a typical sermon fixing is, is the, say, you know, we, we welcome you, you, you you're broken in two. So we, we have tools to help you. And it, you know, we'll give you these tools, we'll have Sunday school to teach you how to use it, and you can go home and fix your pipes. We keep doing that every week, go back to church. They give you new tools and we go back and we fix the pipes and, you know, and then they say, well, how to do, yeah, we can, you know, now set up great and bring your neighbor, right?

Makoto (23m 16s):
So, so there's continuous and, and really rarely you hear a sermon about what's going through the pipes and why we're fixing the pipes. We just assume that's a good thing to do. And so fixing the pipes is not wrong or anything like that. It's, it's, it's just, doesn't go deep enough into w the purpose. So, you know, the ways that we are here to men and we are here to, you know, work in our communities to bring forth the line of new creation into our midst, the Holy spirit, the water of the Holy spirit, flowing through the pipes and blood of Jesus, right.

Makoto (24m 1s):
That, that is there to heal us. And so we have this tendency again, to go straight to brokenness, to fixing and not taking the time to, we reflect on what God did to both redeem us and bring us into new creation. And the wine wine of nucleation is flowing back backward through the pipes, into our lives, broken knives. Now, you know, and that promise is, is something that, you know, if you are a follower of Christ, we need to understand that, especially as we celebrate Easter this year, you know, we need to understand that this is a new creation breaking out into the fractures of the old, and you don't, you know, again, Christ's wounds tell us that we are to move into our own ground, zero experiences and our own pain and trauma.

Makoto (25m 11s):
And somehow God is going to guide us through those very painful experiences to come to new creation. And, and God, somehow doesn't want to do anything other than for us to walk through this with her, you know, and, and that, that is a mind-boggling promise and hope and theologian, the right, you know, is, is the one that really encouraged me to think theologically deeply about this, the post resurrection reality of Jesus remaining human, right?

Makoto (25m 52s):
And, and, and I think, I think fallen artists, that that's an amazing reality because that means the pigments, the very pigments I use, which is pulverized minerals. You know, you have to pulverize the minerals in order to there is these works and to create prismatic layers that are beautiful, I requires broken and you can see he requires broken. And, and so, so as I began to connect what I do in the studio with theology, I, it just, the entire thing opened up for me to really just walk through my own darkness and brokenness and, and be able to experience God's presence in, in that very hard place.

Amy Julia (26m 44s):
Yeah. I wanted to actually ask you about that. You bring up in the book nine 11, you bring up, you go back to the nuclear bombs, dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I'm thinking also, you talk about fire and flood. And I'm thinking also about just the past year in terms of the horrors and sorrows that we've seen, whether it's the past couple of weeks in terms of having these mass shootings, whether it's the past year in terms of violence against Asian Americans and the various acts of injustice we've seen when we talk about police brutality, I mean, there's so many different examples that we can speak to of that pain and suffering horror and tragedy, the list goes on.

Amy Julia (27m 30s):
And yet one of the things you wrote, you said, I create from a vision of the world to come and not just from the broken realities I experienced today. And yet what you're also saying is I don't create only from a vision of the world to come, but also from the broken reality is that I experienced today. And I'd love to hear about how those things are both at work, in your act of making, and also whether you have anything to say to those of us who are trying to live in that tension between injustice and sorrow and pain in the world, and hope for that redemptive new creation.

Makoto (28m 14s):
No, you know, Jesus wept in, in Bethany, Jesus weeps, over Jerusalem, and those years indicate some thing. I think that's more profound and we often give it credit because Jesus, in, in Bethany, you know, he was there to resurrect Lazarus. So it's, it's, it's in, in intimation of his own resurrection, but this time it will be temporary. But, you know, upon seeing Mary, his sister who was very angry and upset that Jesus didn't come when Lazarus was sick.

Makoto (29m 1s):
And we have many moments ourselves, you know, when we pray and somehow God doesn't answer, or God seems elusive and hidden from us. And we say, well, God doesn't care about us, but you know, when Jesus shows up, I mean, all he had to do was take Mary by the hand and bring her to Lazarus grave and say, Lazarus, come out and you could tell Mary, you know, you have a little faith, you should have trust in me. You know, I gained resurrect your brothers.

Makoto (29m 42s):
He doesn't do that. He literally stands weeping with her angry. They were weeping, but why, why, why does he do that? And, and when I consider this pondered upon us, especially after nine 11, and that'd be an intense season, I, I take John 1135 as my pinhole. And, and I try to look at the world through that pinhole and, and understand, and I can't seem to loop out of it. And there's just, you know, constantly to after 2020 giant seven 35, Jesus wept is, is once again, the theme, the theme about time and, and, and, and the way I think I began to appreciate this is because just because God is all powerful and God can fix the problem.

Makoto (30m 38s):
It doesn't mean that that is the best way for us to journey into our own darkness and others darkness. What Jesus does is, you know, in counseling terms is to be fully present in that pain. And, and in, in this, in a way that's making us aware of not, not just our own pain and our anger and our trauma and allowing that to come out, but, but to be present in our own pain, to pay attention to what we need to pay attention to.

Makoto (31m 22s):
So Jesus gives time without words. Of course, you know, he has a ability to explain things as he does to Martha in, in, in, you know, five minutes ago. And he has the ability to heal and resurrect as he does five minutes later. But at that moment, he knows what Mary needs is. Not either of those things, what Mary needs is his friend present in pain without any words. And we know Mary got this because of a response, right? So in John 12, Mary brings her a wedding nod upon Jesus to anoint him.

Makoto (32m 5s):
And, and this is a extravagant, even transgressive act against, you know, a rabbi, you know, being anointed by this woman who is weeping most likely. And, you know, and it's recording all for the gospels in some way. And, and you know, this extravagant response, which is a response that only a bride gives to the bridegroom is the proper response. And the only way she could get to that point was to see, see in Jesus tears, something that profoundly was present in, in, in herself.

Makoto (32m 46s):
And, and the only way that she can respond is to say she intuited that Jesus will have to pay for this somehow that this extravagant cost love is going to cause his own death. And therefore, I must anoint him now as a bride group because he is going to suffer for this. And she was right. And, you know, next, next moment, he's in Palm Sunday, which is the Sunday boss is he's going to be weeping again, looking over Jerusalem and this time, but it wasn't for somebody, it was for us, right?

Makoto (33m 29s):
And so this is, this is a profound journey that, you know, we can be on this Easter season and, and beyond. And it's also, I think, kind of an entry point into how we might understand our own darkness, how our own pains, that Jesus stands with us at that moment, knowing that we may not be ready for an explanation, or we may not be ready for a resurrection, but right now God is with us Emmanuel. And we, we need that.

Amy Julia (34m 8s):
I've been reflecting on something that your thoughts here and in the book have overlaid on helpfully this season, which is the idea of dying with Christ that we might be raised with Christ. And I learned for the first time that the language about dying with Christ is active in its verbs. You know, that we have to consciously die to ourselves. And that's, I think a lifelong process. I'm also encouraged by the fact that he's with us in that, but being raised with Christ is passive. It's, it's not something we do for ourselves. It's not an active work. And I'm just going to quote you again to you, but you were writing about Holy Saturday, which seems appropriate as we approach Easter to bring this up.

Amy Julia (34m 53s):
That it's a, a day of solemn recognition that we cannot do anything about our own resurrection. And then you say, or right, the art of waiting depends upon our willingness to die to ourselves and trust in God. And I'd love to hear again about knowing as you called it slow art, right? There is a literal art of waiting as a part of your process, I imagine. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that from just a literal sense of how you make a piece of art and have the waiting that's involved, but also what that might tell us about this gap between cross and resurrection, between pain and hope.

Makoto (35m 31s):
Yeah. So some of my paintings have 80 to a hundred layers before I start to paint. So wait, did you just say

Amy Julia (35m 38s):
8,200 layers before? What are they, what is the, what are being layered? What's being layered

Makoto (35m 45s):
Mineral layers and they're in different polarization level. So they need to be raised slowly painted over and over. And each time obviously it takes time to dry. So you waiting for your paint, your height. And, and to me, that has been a way for me to enter into this meditative practice of making the paint and then painting. That's so repetitive. You, you, you know, you go into another mode and that that's when the spirit can speak to you, you know, and, and when you're locked in, as if, you know, the, your other part of your lives, you know, that outside of studio becomes part of that rhythm, it's ordained by the rhythm liturgy, within the studio that affects everything else.

Makoto (36m 45s):
And, and so, you know, that, that, that, that becomes part of, and, and waiting is such an important part of art. You know, you cannot have music without pauses. You know, you, you, you, you, you cannot have a choreography without the body stopping. And so being stale, you know, finding that still point of the turning world as TSA, it right, you know, is, is very much at the heart of every art form and every painting has that still point that, that, that is any, anything worthwhile to look at, you know, so if you're not going to have van Gogh or <inaudible>, you can always find that still point hidden sometimes, but, but it is, it is something that everything else is activated around.

Makoto (37m 42s):
And so artists have intuitively aware of this and, and they tend to find ways for us to be able to enter into the journey by creating these still points and, and anything theater, even movies. And, and I always, you know, think about when you're watching a film or any kind of, you know, drama. There's a moment when you, when you, when you, you know, caught up in a story of you fall into the story.

Makoto (38m 26s):
And that moment is when there's a connection between yourself and, and, and, you know, the story, but, but the people who are making the story and, and that gap is, you know, is, is in a moment closed. And they, there's kind of an intimacy with the story. And, and we, and that, that requires a, a kind of suspension of, you know, what is going on around us, right.

Makoto (39m 6s):
That we fought into a story. And, and that, that is what's happening when, when you waiting is, is that you're falling into a story that the spirit is, is speaking, and it's mysterious. You sometimes you can't articulate that. I try to in the book in various ways, but that, that, that is precisely what poets are trying to capture right. In their words. And, and that's why, you know, when we had this inauguration and 22 year old poet just suspense, right, with her words, all that was going on, the chaos that was going on.

Makoto (39m 54s):
And, and that moment is, you know, that, that, that's what ed is talking about. The still point of the turning world, you know, that, that is, that is that artists able to capture. And there's a pause, there's a waiting. And, and there's, you know, words that are being spoken, or maybe even sang. And, and we, we, we kind of have other in between the two and, and suspend judgment. And that's why audits so heating is that we are able to suspend judgment. We normally place on the situation because we're in a survival mode.

Amy Julia (40m 37s):
I think this is related to another place in your book. That was really convicting for me as a writer, who also is a pressured on some level to daily appear on social media. And you write about the difference between the word Neoss and kindness. So I get swallowed up by the Neoss. And I'm gonna ask you to explain that in a minute of social media, almost every day, and yet I really long to be creating out of that place of kindness, like of participating in that. So can you talk about the difference between those two words and what that has to do with what we're talking about now?

Makoto (41m 16s):
So new that's, you know, in, in Greek terms, there are multiple words, but now, as it says, one of them, and from that word, we get the <inaudible>. So w newness is flat. She knew that says that. And that's what, you know, in, in marketing terms at that, that's what catches your attention, right? But it's not lasting, it's not endearing. So, you know, if you were to watch a commercial from even like three years ago, it, it doesn't affect you in the same way, because it's now it's it's past, and you're not in, you know, you're not tantalized by the same kind of, you know, devices or conversation.

Makoto (41m 56s):
And so kindness is new, new, that's what I call Nunu. That's what it is. A new Testament term, describing what Paul says in Christ. We are a new creation. We are kind of creation that, that means it is a fundamentally categorically, a new, new, this. We don't have words. It's not like a new iPhone. You know, that's an awesome, it's, it's not like new fashion. It is new concept of new units. And that's what the resurrection, right. That's why it's supernatural.

Makoto (42m 36s):
It's supernatural. It, you try not, you know, even if you try to explain it and you can have evidence for it, it doesn't go into the fundamental reality of it because the new newness is breaking in. That's the biblical promise. Every moment, you know, there are burning bushes everywhere, but, but, but we don't see it. We don't, we cannot receive it without faith. And, and, but if we can understand that the universe is breaking in, then every journey of darkness, every journey of even trauma can be a way in to that reality, because we are, we are able to, again, you know, suspend our judgment for a moment and fall into a story, right?

Makoto (43m 29s):
So, so it takes imagination to do that, but, but it also takes faith to do that. And, and, and the more you do this, the more you practice that to live in the new newness today, despite what's happening, you know, so, so your setbacks become Genesis moments. When, you know, when, when you living in this sale sound games, scares, written scarcity, written world, you becomes supernaturally generous. And, and people are like, well, I already saw generous. You know, we were trying to survive and he'd say, well, because we need generosity to survive. Right.

Makoto (44m 9s):
And we think not about just ourselves, but, but the future generations and we are, my pain starts to shift from nails to kindness.

Amy Julia (44m 20s):
Well, and I, I'm wondering too, when we get stuck in Nass and don't participate in that kindness, I'm just thinking about, so yes, we were just about waiting for God. Right. But I also think about the patience of God with us in that sense of interesting, somehow interesting, at least part of this new creation to us. Right. And so I wonder how much God is waiting for us to actually say, yes, I'm participating I'm in. And, and I don't mean to say, we are the ones who are doing it, but we are the ones responding to the work that God is doing.

Amy Julia (44m 60s):
And there's a tremendous dignity that God gives us in patiently waiting for us to come to a place of saying, I'm not going to be rushing around anymore doing my own thing, but I'm actually going to find that still point participate in the kindness. Like all of that just seems relevant to me in thinking about what it means to really enter in to the work that God's doing that will remain

Makoto (45m 29s):
Right. And that takes faith. And you're right. You know, the, the short cycle of nail doesn't allow anything to last, you know, and, and it affects every in fact sauce effects, you know, spouse, FX out children. And, and, and so the more we're able to, you know, have hope in, in, you know, faith is something, things hopeful, the evidence of things. And so that means it takes a kind of a suspension belief to be able to deep into, you know, this, this bigger reality as, as I think of it as, as, as you know, rather than running around chasing all entails, you know, and, and, you know, we know this from parenting, if any children or anybody who is a teacher knows that you, you can pause it.

Makoto (46m 29s):
Good, good things in children. And, you know, you, you have the right way condition for this child to find striving, but it's until that child decides to do the right thing, to make the right decisions, it doesn't mean anything. And as parents, we just have to wait, you know, that moment comes, you do the best we can to prepare, you know, the context for that, but it's up to the child.

Amy Julia (46m 59s):
So I have one final question for you, which is for the people who are listening to this, who are not writers, not visual artists who are plumbers or parents, grandparents who are running around after small children, right. Who don't, what does practicing resurrection look like for them? What does making in and not just fixing look like in all of our lives as people who, you know, seek to be a of that new creation,

Makoto (47m 32s):
A great question. I, I think it goes back to making, if we are make, if we're not making, we are consumed and we're being driven by these nails now, you know, ways that the marketing works right. That we, we create a desire for something that we don't even need, you know, but, but even, even outside of that, we become driven by things that we have no control over. We become obsessed, or, you know, begin to create a kind of a fantastical reality where, you know, it doesn't have that presence of suffering presence of darkness it's and, and part of practicing resurrection for us, even if you're not involved in any kind of the art, you know, any kind of arts, even though I believe everybody has something that they're making, you know, your work is making.

Makoto (48m 41s):
So what the question is, what do we make it? Right. And, and so if we ask that question and say, well, I'm not sure if, you know, I aligned myself with what I'm making, then, then that's, that's, you know, a pause through opportunity to take about what is it that you want to make and how can I get to that? And, you know, we may say, well, that's not pragmatic. Okay, fine. But it's, you know, at the end of the day, when we on our death beds, what are we going to remember? Right. Is it, is it the resume stuff?

Makoto (49m 23s):
Is it, is it the cause in the garage? No, without those things, we will, we will care less about those things, what we are going to remember, those intangible experiences that we had with our loved ones. That meant something that at the time, it didn't, it didn't really, you know, it didn't have purpose. It was, it seemed to be good to this. It seemed to be beautiful. It seemed to have all these, you know, Oh, these realities of love built into it, despite what we see in front of us.

Makoto (50m 6s):
Right. So I remember a time after nine 11, it was November. And do you go through trauma? You, you know, your adrenaline runs out in two months and go through this cycle, deep cycle of depression. And I was walking home and I, you know, had to walk home. I had to face ground zero every day and you just get sick of it. You know, you're, you're facing this destruction in front of you that, you know, that takes a long time to mend. And I remember walking with my daughter who was nine and I just, you know, cried out.

Makoto (50m 47s):
I wasn't ready to hug her, but I was just sick of it, you know, and what she said to me then, which just came out of her that moment, I will never forget. And you know, that, that kind of conversation that seems at the time. So, you know, in, in a way it was a word of encouragement, but it was, it was, it was just acknowledging that, you know, that it's going to be okay, you know, and, and, and that kind of reaction, or, or interaction is what we need right.

Makoto (51m 31s):
More than, you know, what, what Naomi brings us. And so whoever you are, you know, for me as an artist, I'm always trying to get, get to that with my art, that, that kind of enduring reality, you know, that's expressed through the paint, but whether you are a plumber or whether you, you know, your Amazon deliver, you know, we can get to that point by being aware, first of all, us our presence in the moment, but also in other people's lives and so needs through loved ones.

Makoto (52m 14s):
And, and being able to articulate that in some way, requires for us to express, make, to harness the image of God in us, we are created to be creative and we need to become makers. And in order to tap into that enduring reality, that kind of can bring up.

3 (52m 42s):
Thank you for that. I, I think about just even there's one place in your book where you write about the fruit of the spirit, love, peace, joy, these, and again, I think whether it is making a painting or making a home or a field or an omelet or a relationship, I mean, there's that sense of, and that, that we generate the fruit because that comes from the love of God at work in us, but it's still, there is that sense, as you said, of turning away from the new to the newness to, and to that life-giving eternal, abundant, new that God can do in all of us.

3 (53m 24s):
So thank you so much for your participation in that, and for welcoming us into that today. <inaudible> thanks so much for listening to love is stronger than fear. I do hope you'll take a moment to go to Makoto fujimura.com. You can find that link in the show notes and spend some time just experiencing some of his paintings. I also highly recommend art plus faith. I think you got a sense of the richness of that book, just from listening to that conversation. I also, as usual, want to thank our cohost breaking ground, as well as Jake Hansen for editing the podcast and Burberry my social media coordinator, who supports me left right.

3 (54m 9s):
And center, and in every way possible, when it comes to this podcast, if you want to support the podcast, you of course can let other people know about it, give it a rating or review, share it, subscribe to it, all of those things, you know, you know, the drill finally, as you go into your day to day, I hope and pray. You will carry with you. The peace that comes from believing that love is <inaudible>.